To not believe that 40% of parents want to bring back the cane?

[Voidka]

Really?

Our school are desperate to be free of a very unsatisfactory supply teacher and yet the Local Authority seem to have cast iron manacles in place to prevent this.

I don't understand this one at all. She must have had a contract. I worked as a supply teacher for a long time. I worked directly for the school, I didn't go through an agency or the LEA, and they could have got rid of me at any time-all they needed to say was 'don't come back tomorrow'.

I am very saddened by this thread. You can be sure that the DC from a loving happy home, with a good diet, plenty of sleep, parents who talk to them and give them time isn't going to be caned. The DC that is going to be caned is the one that comes from the dysfunctional family, probably doesn't even know their father, has no structured life at home, a poor diet, inadequate sleep and is quite likely to get biffed around the head anyway. Where is the justice in that?

'Your parents are doing a great job, you are a joy to teach, of course we will never hit you'
'Your parents shouldn't be in charge of a DC, you are a menace in school and disrupting the education of others-we will hit you with a stick until you stop.'

I think that a better policy is to catch them young (anyone can pick up the signs at 3 yrs) and have small nurture groups in schools where they learn the basics of talking and sharing, listening to others etc etc.

Of course it costs money-caning them doesn't cost a penny!!

Sorry haven't read the whole thread....

Would you cane an adult? Can't help but think those 40% of parents wouldn't fancy being caned themselves.

who will administer it? My niece is a newly qualified teacher and is horrified at the thought of corporal punishment -she would want nothing to do with it so would all the 'nice' teachers abstain and the psycho teachers line up to take part.

You an spot the effective etachers a milke off at our school: Mr O, whose voice echoes down the playgrounds but is equally one of the most caring men I have ever met; we actually begged t have him teach ds1 and he brougt him further in one year than some of the others in several. Equally Miss K, who was gentle and loving but had absolute boundaries. The boys would do anything for a bit of praise from either, but knew how to push the buttons of the other- as with parenting a lot of it seems down to boundaries and getting a reaction.

DS1 is at comp now, a large inner city one that we chose over the local village one becuase of it's ASD speciality- and you can see why the LEA chose that place to have the abse! The school is alrger, more diverse, in the middle of a council estate- and so calm, and ordered, and the children seem so valued. Technically you'd land up there, see the state of the buildings (isn;t there some evidence to suggest that itself impacts on behaviour?) range of languages and area and think bound to be failing: not so. Stunning results. firm discipline, a head with a non nonsence sattitude and lots of empowering extra curriculum stuff- they ahd a eco day when ds1 went uyp for his induction, police chatting to all the teenagers about career aims, kids (including ds1) holding birds of prey and using the climbing wall they have as a reward- ds1 came home beaming, you could see community links being forged before your eyes and well- just stunning really.
It was obvious that the kids behave becuase they know what is expected of them and becuase theya re valued, seen as part of a school community and those that struggle in one area are given other ways toa chieve so that they can also feel they have some worth.

'You can be sure that the DC from a loving happy home, with a good diet, plenty of sleep, parents who talk to them and give them time isn't going to be caned.'

My experience in the 70s didn't reflect this. I was the most compliant child you could ever hope to meet but was hit twice in school. My husband was caned on a fairly regular basis despite ticking all the above boxes. And I think Maryz's point rings true for him - the first time it was a bit of a shock but it didn't put him off playing the fool and pissing about and like the ASBO became a bit of a badge of honour.

There is an issue too that bringing back corporal punishment opens the door for other forms of violence. I clearly remember a child with obvious SN being held upside down by his ankles in class. We were maybe 11 I think. And at secondary a youth being held against the wall by his throat with his feet off the floor. He was a little shit and I can sort of understand why the teacher lost it but he went too far.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is though.

Agree that 'nice' kids do get belted - me and my siblings were all nice brought up kids but still got corporal punishment - maybe a lot less than some of the others. Don't think that it wouldn't happen to your lovely child.

My own school had some pretty shit ways of administering discipline: boys got to line up against a wall on different spots, going from being hit with a ruler on the top one to a metal bar thing on black spot at the bottom. Girls could not get that but they ahd their own ways: lines mostly but humiliation was popular too- on one occasion my scruffy appearance (I had been bullied and had my bag taken so turned up with a carrer until parents got paid) was dealt with by being amde to stand up on the school stage and pointed at by the whole school. The crimes I was punished for (would ahve been physically had I been male) were from being tired (mum had MH issues and dad drank for a while so they would bicker into the night); not doing homework in winter when we all lived in one room as no otehr heating (one excellent old fashioned teacher got together with another and let me do my homework at lunchtime; those were the subjects I got top grades in. No surprise there then). Missing drama rehearsals becuase dad had a work injury adn mum was struggling with her MH and I felt a duty to go home.

I was never a bad girl, but spent my life being punished, humiliated and scred by teahcers who are still there. One reason we will never, ever return to our home town: my kids go to that school over my dead body.

Years after a good friend apologised becuase they all saw what was happening with certain tehcers bullying me but did not feel able to tand up against it (hardly surprising) and still felt abd. There was no need but in some ways the scary thing to me was that being badly treated at home (parents pretty aggressive at that time, although have had help now and got themselves sorted which Ia dmorire them for) I didn;t even pick up on a lot of the stuff she ahd noticed: being told I wa fat, or stupid... that was a norm to me.

Now imagine if someone gave those idiots a cane? Nah.

(I do know what I did to be targeted by the way, it wasn't intentional but probably happened to a lot of kids growing up AS Traits in the eyars before AS was widely known about).

MrsCrafty - I don't understand why you have an unruly child when you support physical punishment and support strong discipline - is it not working? Are you blaming the school's lack of discipline for your child's unruly behaviour? Or have I misunderstood and your unruly child is hypothetical too?

I suspect the truth si tehre are a fair few under finformed idiots looking at spreadsheets with SN costs on (why yes I am qualified to judge as under informed thanks ) thinking it's all nasty lefties who do not beat them ahrd or often enough. It's not that long ago such beliefs were commonplace after all. Sadly, polictical power does not equate to being informed or particularly nice.

I strongly suggest that people want it for other people's DCs. There is a huge fuss on here if a DC has to miss a playtime- I can just imagine the fuss if they get the playtime but are caned!!

I find it really depressing that anyone would want to legitimize assault on children under any circumstances.

I find it depressing that people would express those views on a parenting website-however, remembering a thread where many people thought it quite reasonable to wash out a DCs mouth with soap and water for bad language (as long as it was part of 'a loving relationship'!) -nothing surprises me.

SanctiMoanyArse, You appear to think that all the disruption and bullying is done by those with SN. I don't think that is the case.

I don't think that the way a child behaves has anything to do with its home life, some children have lots of love showered on them, are disciplined via grounded and things taken away, have both parents at home, etc etc and can still behave like gits, and some children who live with 1 parent and have a crap home life can be top of the class and behave impeccably, I think its wrong when people instantly assume that children from 1 parent families and a bad home life are going to me more disruptive that children from 2 parent families. And there is also the one parent family whose children are showered with love and disciplined without violence, and supported by said parent, and vice versa on the 2 parent family.

I am a teacher and recently when I told one of my pupils that I would have to tell his mum about his terrible behaviour that day, he replied "well I'm going to tell her something bad about you first so I wouldn't tell her if I were you". He is 6. Would I want to use a cane on a child? Never, not in a million years. What I'd really like is all the children to come into school fed well, having had a good sleep and to be made to feel that their parents respect and support their teachers, and so should they. Many many children do, but it is blatantly obvious that some do not (same child as mentioned above also told me he was tired because he went to bed late and had a "choclate breakfast").

exoticfruits i don't understand it fully either, just what I was told by the deputy head, her hands were somewhat tied. In this LA in Glasgow, apparantly they provide, and choose the supply staff. Doesn't make sense to me.

Gossipwitch I just totally disagree with your assertion you don't believe the way a child behaves has anything to do with their home life. Do you really not think the parenting shapes them in any way?

I'm interested in the responses that assume the DCs with the worst behaviour (and so more likely to be caned) are the ones subject to physical abuse at home?

My experience has been that I have been shown respect and courtesy in my home, at school and in the street by DCs from households where I know there is criminality and abuse; the DCs who have been rude, or disregarded my authority are the ones from households in which the DCs are treated as equals and are integrated into a household democracy. Weren't some of the individuals involved in the riots from wealthy families where they had never gone without?

I'm not suggesting that violence is the answer though - although I am in favour of national service

These disturbed DCs know that hitting in school is wrong and they mirror the behaviour they get -teachers are (generally) reasonable. I remember in Jamie Oliver's Dream School David Starkey retaliated and told a boy that he was fat. The shock was huge-teachers don't make personal comments. Teachers don't hit. Adults shouldn't be asking DCs not to do things they do themselves. When my own DCs tried using abusive language on me they back tracked quickly, I was able to say that no one had ever said that to me and no one was going to and it wasn't language we used in our family. Had I contantly been calling them 'little shits' etc of course they could say 'but you do'. You can hardly tell them not to hit if you do.

I have been faced by an 11yr old, as big as me, holding 2 metre sticks, one in each hand, that he was threatening to bring down on my head! As I was calmly saying 'now give those to me, Tom' I was thinking 'this is going to hurt if he hits me with them'. I thought that he probably wouldn't-he would know that he had crossed a barrier if he did. Eventually he put them down and we discussed it-he apologised. I think that if violence was commonplace in schools the barrier would already have been crossed and he would have brought them down on my head.

onagar - i think you may have misread SMA's posts. She isn't suggesting that the bullying was being done by children with SN; exactly the opposite in fact. :(

And now I must apologise for hasty posting - I hadn't read back far enough - but really, SMA wouldn't have meant that.

Onager exactly what Thumb said. Indeed, I am Peachy LMAO. I don't do anti SN, as everybody who ahd the misfortune to read my posts knows!

DS1 was no angel, goodness no, and we work hard to deal with that but he received at least what he gave ten times over. I know who would ahve got blame though.

(Dunno wwhat i typed wrong waya round,a rse about tit and all that- sorry)

Oh I see yes. I know what I meant to say but... sorry.

I meant that there are a few bigoted idiots in power who seem to equate cahllenging behaviour such as bullying with Sn with bad parenting.

not that it was actually true. Far from it. DS3 is known locally as the ANgelic Kid. That won't last- what's sweet in a curly ahired 8 year old not so much in an adult- but heck he is the lease naughty / challenging / caneable kid in town. And notably autistic.