to consider taking my DD out of a perfectly good school to HE?

[FigsAndWine]

I am considering taking my 8 year old DD out of school and home educating. My reasons and reservations are detailed here

I've read a bit about HE and I'm feeling more and more that I want to do this. The two people whom I thought would be really negative about this (my best friend and my DM) have been very positive about it and think it would benefit DD. My DP thinks I'm a bit nuts (but then he does anyway... ) but will support my decision. My exDP (DD's dad) is also in a good postion to HE, as he is self employed and therefore flexible with his time, and is very involved with DD.

The school DD is at is a good one. It is over-subscribed, good with outstanding features according to ofsted. I just think that DD would thrive more out of a school environment. It will be a squeeze financially to afford extras (trips, classes, activities), but we could manage. I work part time and could fit HE around this.

The reason I'm posting in aibu is because I know all the reasons why I want to do this; I guess I want to hear some opposing opinions so I can feel whether they are enough to make me change my mind.

Fire away!

I think you have made up your mind, OP.

I also think that having a day like today is all very well - of course she enjoyed it because she was skiving school and you were doing interesting things with her. Are you planning to stick to a curriculum if you home school? There will always be things that aren't interesting that you just have to learn at school, because they prepare you for the more interesting stuff. How will you manage with your daughter when you are both strong willed when you insist she has to learn something and she refuses and says she wants to go back to school and be with her friends?

Is there any reason why you can't do things like that with her at the weekends?

I don't think your daughter would benefit from being one-to-one with you for the bulk of the day. It sounds as though it would be a constant battle. She is not unhappy at school. She moans about battles with the boys but it sounds as though she really enjoys them. I think you are projecting onto her your view of school education.

"Nobody seems to have mentioned the skills of the teacher. Do people who HE think they know as much as a specialist teacher, if they are HE at 11+?"

No. But they can still make a damn good job of it if their child is self motivated and can sustain concentration for a reasonable length of time. As a graduate I'd expect to be able to learn any subject to GCSE level and would expect to do it alongside my children.

I simply don't accept that being taught in large groups by qualified teachers is the only way to guarantee that learning will take place. As far as I'm aware there were many brilliant and erudite women who self-educated, or were educated by their parents or a governess prior to school becoming the norm for girls. My own father left school at 14 but went on to become a Fleet Street journalist and then a diplomat. He was self-educated, as many intellectually curious people are.

You don't need to be a professional chef to be a brilliant cook. And you don't need to have a teaching qualification to be a brilliant teacher. There have been generations of inspirational, brilliant mothers who have taught their children to read and write and it's sad that one of the basic skills of good parenting - being able to teach your child - is now seen as something only someone with a formal qualification can do.....

Figs - you sound like you're doing a BRILLIANT job, and your dd sounds very smart. My 8 year old spent the afternoon trying to make a box for his nintendo ds out of a cereal packet. He would have much rather been out foraging for funghi (though being my boy he is, he would have wanted to spend hours talking about the implications of kidney failure caused by accidental poisoning, instead of how mushrooms grow......)

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar said "There are plenty of perfectly happy HE children I?m sure. Many that are a bit odd are probably HE because of their idiosyncrasies and not the other way around. HE can be a good way forward for those children." I agree with this; DD has never been a typical child, and I don't think she ever will be. Her dad and I are both a bit odd, in our own ways, too. When she started nursery, DD was put under 'special measures observation' or something (can't remember now the exact term). The nursery was really hot on SEN (they had a SEN unit as part of the centre) and DD was put into a small group thing where they worked on certain behavioural and learning issues. The conclusion was that DD wasn't developmentally delayed and didn't have any problems communicating, she was just very determined to do things her way, and woe betide anyone who got in her way. Her teacher in that group was later our p/t nanny for a while, and she said about to me about DD "In a class of 30 children, if 29 of them are doing one thing,[that they've been told to do] you can almost guarantee that the 30th will do so too. Not DD; she will just go off and do something completely different regardless." I think that's less so now after 6 years of school, but that's still a big part of her personality.

Jenai said "An interesting exercise would, I think, be to plan a scheme of work. Say about a couple of terms? worth. Not in granular detail, but with objectives and an idea of how you might help your dd to reach them ? what resources you?ll need, trips or activities, that kind of thing. Having done that, would you be able to do similar again and again until your dd reaches 16 or decides to return to formal schooling?"

I think that's an excellent idea! It will give me an idea of how achievable that is, and what are the 'core basics' that are non negotiable. I think it would help DD to know what the non negotiables would be too.

You know me

lovely to hear about DS. What school? M?

Sorry to hijack OP

There are lots of really good posts on here, I'm sure that you are getting plenty to think about, FigsandWine.

There are two things I wanted to add - the first, directly in response to your OP, is that YA Definitely NOT BU to consider taking your dd out of school. I think that the more people question and think about things, and try and decide whether they are genuinely right, rather than just doing them because everyone else does, the better. And as lots have said, trying HE doesn't mean you have to do it for ever. I know plenty of children who have come out of school for a while and then gone back in, maybe to a different school, maybe back into the same school but having worked through some of their problems or just got out of the 'rut' that they were stuck in.

The second point I think often gets ignored - not all schools are actually that great at teaching all children. My dd definitely does want to go to school (for the social opportunities ), and I wouldn't take her out unless she wanted to stop going. But it makes me sad that we then have to spend so much of the precious time that she has out of school doing things like - just for example - teaching her to write, spell, learn her tables - minor things like that.

OK, haven't read many posts but I'm a teacher who home-edded for a good few months while we lived abroad. Here are my witterings.

I thought I'd love HE - always wanted to try it, particularly for dyslexic ds (3rd of 4 dc). I hated it. It was harder than I thought - yes I'm a teacher (originally secondary subject trained but also with primary training). I need to see that I'm not closing off opportunities to my dc - will it still lead to decent university entrance? I've tried hard to understand HE, but I just see too many people fail at it. Also as a parent it's hugely lonely, particularly if like me, you prefer nice shoes to recycling.

Disclaimer: I onviously do recycle etc. That wasn't meant to sound trite.

titty thank you! Ohh I'd love to take your ds fungi foraging and explain all about poisoning and the physiological effects of the toxins on the liver and kidneys! I really enjoy talking to children when they're interested - not so much the rest of the time... I was trying to explain to DD how haemolytic toxins work today but she was too busy running around puffing puffball spores all over everything!

Imperial I haven't made my mind up, not at all. I really appreciate your posts (which, interestingly, have been getting increasingly anti-HE... ) - they have been well thought out and made some really salient points.
I would have a core curriculum that I would cover, and the rest would be led by DD. If we set a trial period and DD kicks off about not wanting to do the core stuff and to go back to school, then I would make her do the core stuff and tell her that she can go back to school at the end of the trial period. I never let her beat me - that way lies defeat and madness. If she wanted to go back to school after the trial period (or at any point if I thought she was genuinely unhappy HEing, not just shirking work), then I would send her back to school like a shot.

I think that the only way I will do this is if I can get the school head to agree to a trial period of flexi-schooling, where she goes in one day a week or takes a sabatical or something for a trial period. That way her place would stay open (and they'd continue to get their funding from the LEA).

she did 45 mins Spanish audio course. Minimal moaning, but she got arsey with me when I tried to help her, so I let her do it all herself.

I think that says it all. She had a nice day-any DC would have liked it for a change-she was doing exactly as she chose to, but try to get her to do something that she really needs, like Maths and she is going to get arsy again. I think that you are far too close to her to be helpful.
I also think it is all about you, you have read up about it, you would like to do it, you didn't like school.

In reality -to quote

when she was younger I found trying to teach her anything to be quite frustrasting - she just seemed to resist me every step of the way. She was a late talker, and I feel like I spectacularly failed to teach her anything as a toddler. She came on in leaps and bounds when she started nursery at almost 4

What makes you think anything has changed?

Flexi schooling is the worst of both worlds IMO. School is about so much more than the lessons-the rest don't go in a cupboard while she isn't there-they carry on with friendships, experiences etc and she isn't part of it.
Fine if you have a highly confident, popular, leader type DC- but putting them in a horrible position if they are not.

Thanks Takver. I would definitely take her out and try HE if she could go back to that school if it didn't work out for us. It the loss of her place that worries me - it's such a gamble. The other primary school in the village I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, tbh.

Goingmad would you tell me more? What was it that you found hardest? How old were your DCs at the time?

ooh, get, what mystery in your new name! pm me?

he's at a brand new academy. ITS LUSH!

That's a really tough position to be in, Figs - good luck to you both in finding a solution that will work for her (and not drive you mad).

Its interesting that both your dd's dad and two other people close to you think that it is a good idea - and worth bearing in mind as they maybe have a more objective take on it all (not so close & dealing with things everyday - at least in your DM & friend's case)?

bumbleymummy I know it was hours ago we both posted, just wanted to reply. Haven't read through the masses of responses so apologies to anyone else who has questioned my post up-thread.

It is purely my interpretation of my cousins that the HE did not help with their social interaction, I fully admit that. They are the only HE people I know. But I do know hundreds (or have known) of people that were educated at school and they are far different in their oddities than my cousins.

I stand by what I said before, I wouldn't consider HE unless in dire circumstances.

@ exotic As I said earlier when someone said that my posts are all about me - of course they are - in trying to decide whether this would be the right choice for DD, I'm examining myself; my motivations, my capabilities, my strengths and my weaknesses. How else would I decide whether I'm the best person to facilitate her education??

This is not something that I would enter into lightly, and I'm very grateful for all the helpful posts (the unhelpful ones...not so much. ) that have given me food for thought and pause for thought.

I think that if you read my posts, you'll see quite a lot about my DD, and her personality and needs. I'm considering HE because my DD doesn't want to go to school and wants to HE, not because I didn't enjoy school.

I think you're being absurdly simplistic. This about my views on education; on what schools offer, how they teach, and the social environment they create, and whether that is the right place for my DD to learn and thrive. Your views on these things presumably influenced whether you chose to send your DCs to school. Was that just 'all about you' - because you liked school so you're projecting onto your DCs and putting them into school? Or did you decide that school was the best learning environment for your DCs? Or did you not give it any thought at all?

I don't think flexi schooling would work for us long term. It would be to keep her place at school whilst we trialled HE.

What do I think has changed since she was a toddler? She is verbal now, and very articulate; she can tell me what she wants and needs, and we are able to have really enjoyable and stimulating conversations. I think I understand her a lot better now than I did then, and understand her need to do things for herself, find out things for herself.

I would have thought that having examined them all that you would have worked out that you are not the best person to facilitate her education-unless you are now willing to let her have her own way all the time.
I predict sunshine and light when she does as she wants-tantrums and arguments when you try and impose what you want.
An 8yr old girl doesn't know what is best for her.

Just to clarify, the misgivings I expressed about HE in general weren't meant to apply specifically to the OP... OP, you sound quite self-aware and I'm sure your daughter will be fine whatever route you take.

organiccarrotcake, sorry you thought I was making "awful", "unfair" generalisations about HE. I meant to make it clear that I DON'T believe school is always better than HE. I dislike dogmas. I'm sure that the parents and family themselves matter more in the end than the question of whether a child is home educated or not - if your parents are reasonably sane and love you and take an active interest in your education, the specific kind of education they ultimately opt for is not so important. What matters is a stable home life. And lots of bedtime stories.

That said, IF a child's home life is unstable to start with, then that child is better off being schooled outside the home. Period. The vast, vast majority of HE parents aren't child abusers - to imply that they are would be rubbish. But it CAN happen that in a family where the parents already have authoritarian tendencies (and I don't mean authoritarian tendencies in the sense that the OP was using, I mean SCARY authoritarian tendencies), the parents decide to HE because it enables them to micromanage their children's lives even more. It's rare but it does happen. In the small cluster of HE families I knew growing up, a couple of the families were much worse than mine. (One excelled at devising cruel and unusual physical punishments for their DCs. The grown children have severe psychological difficulties to this day. Another was an immigrant family who didn't even make a pretence of educating their kids; they kept them home so that they could work all day in the family upholstery business.) This was in the US, BTW, and the cultural context is relevant. There are loads more HE families there, as someone said, and more hard-core religious nuttiness associated with HE.

These examples are extreme and literally a world away from the OP, but they helped to form my conviction that letting your kids interact with the world around them is a Good Thing, and important.

Sieglinde, OMG yes, Eton is definitely all about the parents rather than the children! And is a million times worse than HE! Seriously, it's a fair point that parents' educational choices are always, to some degree, about their own desires. In my case I am a Guardian-reading cliche and happy that my DS can go to a state school where he can interact with a range of kids from vastly different social and economic backgrounds, many of whom don't speak English as a first language. I am not too worried about him being academically shortchanged; my DP and I are nerds academics and torment the poor child with plenty of enriching activities outside school hours. Later I hope he will read Shakespeare but for the moment I am pleased that he is a world-class authority on Ben10. And that he gets invited to lots of birthday parties. It's all about me, really.

Great post marfisa.

ragged you make good points about the 'gaps' - the subjects I (and her dad) don't like or excel at. I'd give that a lot of thought and try to compensate, but it is a valid concern.

I certainly don't disparage academic achievement, teachers, qualifications. I've had some amazing teachers (in FE) and I have a degree. I just have doubts about the school system being right for all children.

Good luck whatever you decide F&W. fwiw, I reckon about half the HErs I know do it with reasons similar to yours.

Marfisa, thanks for your reply. I think we all invest in particular stories, perhaps. And oddly, I do know some kids who were very happy at Eton, and whose parents would say how outgoing it made them. So wonder if this makes it ok to reinforce a chasm in society send the little ones away to school, since most of the posh parents I know would justify it in just the ways school ed is justified holus bolus here?

On your strong-willed dd, OP - I think she'd be strong-willed at school, too, and since she's obviously bright, she could easily find ways to dodge the column in a big class group; you might find you were still fighting at homework time. But you do need a strategy for the boring stuff at HE, or it does all go west quite quickly. FWIW, ours is to alternate between the necessary grind - grammar, though she likes grammar, and maths - and the stuff she loves -basically reading history and English. She's become fairly self-disciplined about this, though she is older, nearly 12. Generally, she needs more time/support for the grinding stuff than for the stuff she enjoys.

she's a strong girl- wrestling with the boys and chasing them about despite getting Chinese burns and so on

I think that's excellent. She has the grit for leadership of some type but maybe not yet the other skills she would need for that. Find somewhere away from home (where you are obviously goingto be the unchallenged leader - and I find that ok) for her to develop as a gutsy leader type. She seems to have it in her. Don't let that get crushed. Find some place where she can work on that

I had a tour around Eton and I was very impressed, the opportunities there were wonderful and it gives a fantastic education -in terms of the speakers they get there alone. It suits a certain type of DC down to the ground.
I always hate the idea that a particular type of education suits all.
I think that you take your DC and find what suits them which was why I took FigsandWine up about it not being about her. You start with the DC. What is best for them? I agree that you then have to factor yourself in, especially with HE, can you do it?
Even within the same family you will get one DC who thrives with the intellectual stimulus of school and one who is self motivated and can work at home.
I feel that OP has a very strong willed DC and to avoid the fall out OP will let her have her own way and justify it in all sorts of ways to prove that it is all for the best-when in reality she is just getting her own way and it probably isn't for the best.

Hi OP, I think you might be me :) I was considering HE, largely for the same reasons as you, and with the same reservations as you. We are sticking with school at the moment though. I haven't read the last page or two of this thread, so apologies if I am repeating what people have already said. My main concern when thinking about HE was the social side of it - not that my DD would lack social opportunities with HE (anybody who thinks that clearly knows nothing about HE!) but that it would be my responsibility. I'm not a very outgoing person and unless you already have a large network of friends (I don't) then you would presumably have to work hard at making these opportunities happen. I think I would find it quite hard to walk into a well-established group as the new girl and to get really involved in the HE scene. That might not bother you at all though!

As for flexi-schooling, I thought about that but decided it wouldn't be any good. The joy of HE, imo, is that your child is free to follow their own interests to a large extent - but when you flexi-school you still have to keep up with schoolwork, take SATs etc. as you still count towards the school's results. So if you're going to have to do the schoolwork anyway, you may as well be at school. That was my take on it, anyway.

This has probably been said too (sorry!) but many people are misunderstanding the concept of teaching with HE. From what I understand, the parent doesn't really teach the child. Of course you can go that route but many, many parents don't - instead, their facilitate the child's learning by providing resources etc. and the child teaches themself. eg. you might say "here's a block of ice and a hairdryer - let's see what happens when we apply heat to a solid" (ok, so your DD would be past that stage now but I just use that as an example!) Many parents say that a delight of HE is that you learn alongside your child. So the argument that "you're not a qualified teacher" is, frankly, nonsense :)

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Thanks ragged.

ZZZen said "She has the grit for leadership of some type but maybe not yet the other skills she would need for that." You are absolutely spot on! She certainly has the grit for it, but she needs to develop the softer skills, not always try to dominate, and learn to compromise. I think team sports would be good for her, and maybe cadets of some kind (we have RAF cadets near us that she could try when she's older - I think the authority would probably kill or cure her! ). Karate is very good for her too.

More good advice from sieglinde, thank you. Yes I agree about the grind; I would work on a home curriculum to ensure we were covering the core stuff.