to ask you to explain to dh, that 1, women are still often told to wear make up and heels to work 2, whys its a problem for women

[carriedababi]

just had a big arguement with him, we where talking about the tv programme, about pamper palours for children, and although i by no means with children having make up etc, i said to dh, i think a bigger problem is that fact that alot of women are told to wear make up at work and even heels.

i went on to explain that noone should be forced to wear heels that are actually bad for your health and that people shouldn't work for places like that then

i know the bank of england a couple of years ago advised the women working there on how to dress for sucess.

so aibu in thinking this is a comon problem
and hwo else can i get it through to dh, why this is a problem

Coco,
So if men were told they had to wear make-up you think they would be Ok with it?

I've never worked anywhere where I have been told to wear heels or make up. Smart and tidy, well presented - maybe. But that applies to all staff, not just women. Up to the individual person to decide what that means.

When I worked in a prison it was advised to wear certain clothing - but more the opposite of heels and make up for women.

You know what I reckon if make-was culturally acceptable for men, then yes I think more would want to wear it.

I know men who have and do on daily basis! Even if it is black nail varnish to signify they are goth for instance.

Lets not forget in different periods of history men have worn make-up as part of everyday life.

Sometimes I feel a bit sorry for men that even the odd dab of concealor is not widely regarded as OK

I often thank my lucky stars I can wear make-up when I wake up looking rough!

One of my friends brothers used medicated foundation for severe acne as a teenager.

He got locked in cupboard at school for it!

:( that's awful Coco :(

Apparently I'm not expressing myself well today. I didn't say that any of you as individuals are trying to be eye candy. I was asking where the idea that make-up 'looks professional' comes from, and can only conclude it's from men with the idea that they would allow women to join them in their complicated manly jobs only if they looked good.

The only job I was suggested, not told, to wear make-up in was working for a snooty upmarket cosmetics chain.

A woman told me to do it. The chain was founded by a woman. Only women worked there.

I was happy to oblige as I love make-up and the chance to use free designer make-up was great.

Doesn't fit with your conclusion I am afraid.

It's not that you're not expressing yourself Annie tbh, it's that you keep changing the question / premise of your argument

First of all you're judging women for how they dress

Then bemoaning the fact that women get judged by how they dress

Then you ask why women wear make up and heels - is it to be eye candy?

Then you ask why make up and high heels are considered professional, with a side order of - it's all men's fault because they want women to be eye candy

Which is it?

I;ve never worked anywhere where this has happened. It was absolutely expected youw ere smart- especially wehn I was a fundraiser fronting up at events on behalf of a national charity- but that's to be expected. I never wore heels though; for me heels are what you wear to black tie balls and nothing else, they hurt. I don't do pain unless it comes with alcohol frankly (and the shoes get kicked off for dancing).

At the charity I wore smart mid heels or low, and a long line smart suit (it was the middle of the last decade though, longline was popular). If I wanted really fancy embroidery appeared but never anything causing discomfort pain or slowing me down when the lift was out of action.

Smart is fine; smart is professional and carries an image about your work and attitude but smart doesn't have to mean flirty.

I qualified with a certificate that is popular with behind the counter make up staff BTW and to be honest that one I can get as you are supposed to sell the products that way. But blimey some of those women do look orange so I suspect it ahs the opposite effect.

I recall sending a new employee home one night to wash some make up off and get changed. She was wearing a bum length mini with fishnets, stilettos and was caked in makeup. You could also smell the perfume and hairspray which would taint the food. But I've also sent someone home for being dirty. Unwashed hair, grubby hands, flaky skin and looked like death (later found out he was a junkie).

Oh, and I never wore make up past a slick of undereye concealer either, worked from 14, until ds was born, and had a couple of pt jobs since

Trillian, I'd love to be a Bee Keeper! No, I worked in a wafer fab making micro chips. Everyone dressed the same no matter sex or rank, no makeup, big baggy boiler suits, trainers and only thing visible were the eyes. It was great and quite liberating and an eyeopener on nights out when everyone was dressed to the nines! So many threads on Muslim women covering up but seems western women have their own issues and constraints -makes you wonder who really has the best deal and gets to live their lives being less judged.

OK, so let me try to make it clear.

1. Yes, I judge people on how they dress. Can any of your honestly say that you wouldn't make assumptions about the intelligence of a women tottering on rhinestone stilettos with her breasts bursting out of an animal-print top, bottle blonde hair and makeup applied with a trowel? And I would equally judge a man with two huge rhinestone earrings, a fat gold necklace, a vest and trackie-bottoms. I didn't say I automatically rate anyone with a bit of mascara and lipgloss as an idiot. It's a sliding scale.

2. While everyone judges everyone on their appearance whether they like it/confess to it or not, it is still ridiculous to equate a women's ability to do a job well on whether or not she makes maximum effort to look good. Given point 1 above, surely the opposite should apply.

3. I thought I made the eye-candy point clearly the first time but apparently not. I was trying to say the same thing both times. I believe women are expected to make themselves appealing at work, not just smart, to appease the men for the transgression of being in their male workplace. I never said women to do because they want to be eye candy, but that men impose it on them.

I work in a casino and have to wear heels and a full face of makeup every day. It is specified in our handbook and we get pulled up for it if we haven't done it. It used to be a lot worse, but it really does happen!

And what makes it worse is that we have to stand up for hours at a time, and it's always the bloody male managers that tell us we have to wear heels. I don't mind most of the time, but if I had any back problems at all I wouldn't be prepared to wear them. It is in our contract, but I'd like to see them try and get away with discliplining anyone because of it!

1. That's not what you said. You said anyone at your workplace who wears heels and make up is ridiculed behind their back. That image you've now said is obviously an extreme and not what you said at first and not anyone I have seen in 25 years in the workplace

1. You can't have it both ways. You say you judge people's intelligence by how they look. Then you say here that it is ridiculous to judge a women's ability on how she looks. Even though you do just that with your colleagues

1. I can assure ou that NO man imposes what I waer on me. No women either. I wear what pleases me. Not anyone else

You seem to have a very dim view of women Annie :( it seems like it is not men who are imposing on and stereotyping and judging women, it is you! :(

I give up, Curry, seriously. That's not what I said in any of the 3 points.

But can you not understand that in point 3, I mean in society, not you personally. Try to step back from yourself for a minute, consider the big picture and read my posts again. It's not about you.

I worked for two american investment banks in a client facing and professional role and was never required to wear any make up or heels. In fact full make-up and heels was looked at with bemusement. Men, however, were expected to be clean shaven and definitely to have NO facial hair (beards, moustaches, etc).

You have to for airlines - full make up and heels. Vile! Totally unreasonable and not on a par with what men have to do.

I hate heels and would object very strongly to being asked to wear them. Smart shoes, fine, but I would have to stick to flats.

BTW - it is just Curry or does everyone interpret my posts the same way? Because it's very frustrating that my point is being missed my such a wide margin.

I've seen many stewardesses in flats or courts, think many change them once they are on board. The rules have definitely relaxed compared to years ago when you had to be young, skinny, quite attractive and very groomed with perfect makeup. The girls on Singapore Airlines are like models.

Annie, no, I took it the way you meant it.

Annie, I think you are both looking at it from extremes. As a person with very reasonable experience in trading (I used to be a salesperson for 12 years working for the most profitable groups in two of arguably the best and blue-blooded american banks) I can categorically say that any pressure to wear make-up and high heels and having any to tart up in general was not present. One had to look "professional" whatever that means. Some women did use make-up, some not (I did not because too lazy at 5.30am when making my trip from Surrey to Canary Wharf), but it was pretty irrelevant.

This is not to say that there are plenty of other issues for women's rights in these types of establishments (old- and "new"-boys' networks, lack of desire to accommodate flexible hour arrangements, etc).

"This is not to say that there are not plenty of..."