to ask you to explain to dh, that 1, women are still often told to wear make up and heels to work 2, whys its a problem for women

[carriedababi]

just had a big arguement with him, we where talking about the tv programme, about pamper palours for children, and although i by no means with children having make up etc, i said to dh, i think a bigger problem is that fact that alot of women are told to wear make up at work and even heels.

i went on to explain that noone should be forced to wear heels that are actually bad for your health and that people shouldn't work for places like that then

i know the bank of england a couple of years ago advised the women working there on how to dress for sucess.

so aibu in thinking this is a comon problem
and hwo else can i get it through to dh, why this is a problem

coco I do aplogise . As Kelly said, it wasn't you it was Annie

do you spear their ties with your stilettos occasionally?That could be fun..

"But, rightly or wrongly, on seeing random women in the street I will judge their intelligence to be indirectly proportional to amount to makeup they wear, the height of their heels and the amount of cleavage on display"

Yes, well I imagine then, that the more make-up, the more intelligant in that case. Can we take that as logic as you wear no make-up and you sound rather dim. Oh, and vile.

CurrySpice

No worries Curry. Was just as appalled at such a shallow and dim-witted attitude as you.

Look- it got worse (see above!)

God this thread makes me think of the "Devil Wears Prada"

I occasionally wear make up to work, but NEVER wear heels or dress corporately (unless a meeting on). I would alienate my client group too much if I dressed up too much. Smart but casual is our dress code.

Well, ignoring the personal attacks from posters missing my point....

Would anyone agree that in professions where women have only recently 'joined', there is more pressure on women to look their best? For example, say, business and finance. I'm in academia and women have been 'accepted' there for much longer and so their appearance is not even vaguely important?

Although there is also the consideration that the professions where women are expected to tart themselves up to be taken seriously, men are also expected to look smart, ie suit and tie. But I really don't see why make-up and heels should form part of the 'looking smart' requirements. Surely a suit and sensible shoes is just as good for a woman as for a man?

I am so confsed now coco :o

I thought she meant the more make-up, the less intelligent

Shall we just talk about kittens and eyeshadow as befits heel-wearers

Annie, that's not quite what you said first is it? You didn't bemoan the fact women are judged on their appearance.

You said that you personally judged and criticised women for wearing heels and make up

Not sure that finance counts as a profession that women have recently joined... I'm in finance and am very hit and miss over whether I wear make up. Certainly when I was pregnant and my skin was all over the place I didn't wear any at all as it just made things worse.

If I'm up early enough I'll have time to put on foundation/eyeliner/mascara but time in bed is more important to me than make up and I never wear make up on the days I don't work (I'm p/t). In all the time I've been working I've never had comments made (apart from the one time that I wore what I thought were very fancy summer shoes to an interview and the interviewer complained that I had come in flip flops - didn't stop me getting the job mind you, I just never wore them to work )

Curryspice
I can talk eyeshadow any day!

Here is something; did you do that the M&S make-up range is apparently Chanel repackaged? I have to say it does look like it and the quality is brilliant!

Not 100% sure if true but someone I know who works at M&S told me....

18 years ago I worked as a christmas temp at debenhams we were told

to wear heels
no bare legs (checks were made)
makeup was essential
hair was to be styled.

Annie,
I agree that make-up is not the same as smart. But I see no difference in thinking someone is less intelligent because they wear make-up, and thinking someone is less intelligent because they wear a headscarf, or veil. Its is prejudice either way.
Some days I wear make-up, and heels, other days I do not, my IQ certainly does not change with my make-up.

Well, they're two different points. Of course I bemoan women being judged on their appearance professionally, and I realise that makes me a hypocrite when I judge people on appearance myself (I include over-groomed men in my judgement though, not just women). I realise this isn't nice, but we all judge, whether we admit it or not.

In a social situation, work aside, the more highly 'groomed' a person is, the more I assume they wish the world to evaluate them based on appearance rather than personality or intelligence. Style over substance.

Why do women have to wear heels and makeup to work though? Is it that men will only accept their presence as long as they are providing eye-candy?

Am in finance and have never worn make up or heels - and it is avery corporate environment (City). Amount of make up worn varies a lot as does heels but the less subtle makeup tends to be worn by the more junior staff. Only comments I have heard were to make people dress smarter/less revealing -or in one case less vibrant colours and it was addressed very sensibly - manager just asked the individuals if they wanted to be known for the way they looked or for what they did...

years ago I knew companies that had no trousers codes for women (but this was in a company where suits were expected and before trouser suits were available) and also knew dress code which stipulated that women had to wear camisoles (but this was to prevent issues with transparent blouses)

What are these jobs where people only see your eyes? Giant dinosaur costumes?

I have not had to wear heels at work, makeup was always optional.

Natural attractiveness was possibly seen as valuable by one company. Everyone under 30, that kind of thing. (when I was under 30 of course).

The more sales-y the role the more likely there will be the wearing of high heeled shoes ime etc

I was wondering about that too! I suppose some protective suit and you can only see the eyes through the eye shield...

Yes in the civil service where women are treated IME equally with men, very few in my organisation wear makeup and heels. We do have a very relaxed attitude to office apparel in general though.

I did have a twatty useless female boss once who was very into make up, heels and designer gear. She made herself into a laughing stock really with her ridiculous comments on the subject, along with also being pretty useless in general.

Men are also given guidelines on what to wear too.

Most proffesional places would not allow tattoos or piercings to be shown.
Most require ironed shirts and suits.
Certain haircuts and hairstyles allowed.
Only certain styles of shoes (no trainers)

There are many establishments where if we want to be part of it we have to go by their rules. At school our skirts were measured, no nail varnish and I was once suspended for a streak of red hairdye!

Even in our personal Some nightclubs will not allow trainers or hoodies. There are many luxury hotels and shops where entering without a shirt is forbidden (which effects men more I imagine!)

When I joined [insert name big 4 of accountancy firm here] there was a talk for all new recruits - male and female - on dress code and how to present yourself. I can't remember if she said anything about make-up though. She advised the women on how to accessorise appropriately which caused a fair bit of sniggering.

I think there is a difference between a dress code though and saying that someone's non-made up face is not acceptable.

As for cabin crew, half of them I see these days are men. If air stewards don't have to wear make-up (though I think some of them do) then neither should the stewardesses. Surely any company that tries to enforce the wearing of make-up would be on a sex discrimination charge PDQ, unless it applies to both genders.

"redexpat Tue 06-Sep-11 13:02:29
Make up: it is to look professional and finished. Unfortunately no one ever told me this before I was about 27 so never got a job until then."

redexpt I have worked since I was 15 (I am now 28) and have worn make-up a grand total of twice in my entire life and neither of those times was to work. I have so far never had particular problems finding a job and have rarely not been offered a job I was interviewed for.

I suspect that not wearing make-up was perhaps not the main reason you could not find work

Annie I don't wear anything to provide eye candy. I wear what I wear because it pleases me.

And if you assume people are thick and shallow because of what they wear, you are probably the one missing out on meeting and talking to a lot of interesting women.

I am surprised that someone who is clearly not stupid could make such simplistic and muddle-headed judgements to be honest

No dress or make up code in my work place (the City) but I have told a couple of people aside over the years and told them if they wanted to be taken seriously by all then dressing like Liz out of Corrie with lots of cleavage on show was not a great look.

I wear both to work - i've explained the heels, and also because I like them. I wear make up because it makes me look even more ridiculously good-looking less like death as I'm currently suffering from insomnia. And again, I like it.

I'm not eye candy to anyone, bar DP. I'm also not a moron. And, TBH, I don't care what my managers etc. think of my appearane - I'm more concerned about what they think about my work.