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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to ask you to explain to dh, that 1, women are still often told to wear make up and heels to work 2, whys its a problem for women

175 replies

carriedababi · 06/09/2011 00:03

just had a big arguement with him, we where talking about the tv programme, about pamper palours for children, and although i by no means with children having make up etc, i said to dh, i think a bigger problem is that fact that alot of women are told to wear make up at work and even heels.

i went on to explain that noone should be forced to wear heels that are actually bad for your health and that people shouldn't work for places like that thenHmm

i know the bank of england a couple of years ago advised the women working there on how to dress for sucess.

so aibu in thinking this is a comon problem
and hwo else can i get it through to dh, why this is a problem

OP posts:
Selky · 06/09/2011 10:58

I had a job in a hotel where I my contract specified that I had to wear tights with my uniform(knee highs not acceptable) and shave my legs.

Hair tied back.

No perfume or highly scented deodorant.

No facial hair for men.

The hair and perfume was a sensible hygiene precaution. The rest...

They didn't ever check that I have shaved my legs by the way.

azazello · 06/09/2011 11:17

I'm a solicitor and have never had any comments about clothing / shoes or make up. The only time I felt slightly uncomfortable was when I ended up having a very unexpected meeting with the client late on a dress-down friday and I had adopted a very casual interpretation of smart-casual. The client found it funny...

When I was a practising barrister, I did trowel on make up before court appearances but that was kind of like the wig, gown and black suit - it was actory dressing up rather than dress code.

I suspect it is far more common in retail and sales / marketing jobs.

pointissima · 06/09/2011 11:32

This is an interesting question.

From any business perspective, it is important that a company's representatives create the "right" impression for customers; but clearly this should never spill over into requiring female employees to be quasi sex objects, or even requiring them to create a charming aesthetic impression.

I'm a lawyer and our lawyers have to look like lawyers. This does not necessarily mean wearing a suit (no need to pretend to be a man) but it does mean dressing with an equivalent degree of formality, which for most women (but not all) will involve some heel and some make-up. I wear no make up at my desk but will put a bit on for meetings in order to look groomed and in control of my life(!).

Far from telling women that they must dress to be attractive, we usually tell them to do the opposite if they want to be taken seriously: lower heels, less make-up, longer skirts, no bare shoulders/midriff/legs etc..

kelly2000 · 06/09/2011 12:36

Would DH like it if he was told to wear make-up (and you can get make-up for me) to work? Would he also approve if women were told to wear veils covering their faces? If he disagrees with you having to cover your face with a bit of material, why does he think being told to cover your face in chemicals is ok? I very often do not wear make-up, I look a certain way and that is that and I am not going to hide behing layers of chemicals just so other people like to look at me more. If my boss told me to wear make-up, I would turn up in a veil the next day!

Takeresponsibility · 06/09/2011 12:49

We have two uniforms, one is for a physical role and is combat trousers, steel toecap boots and polo shirts for everyone. If you are rostered the public facing role on a particular day you wear the shirt/blouse and trousers or skirt. Very few people wear the skirt, I think I've worn mine twice! With this uniform we have to wear shoes that are suitable for work (think running around in a car park) that are not more than 2" high, and hair and make up should be "natural". Certain members of my staff always wear heels and full slap with their uniform even on a shift that starts at 06:00.

My boss wouldn't dream of telling me to wear make up, but I often tell him to iron his shirt properly.

Cocoflower · 06/09/2011 12:54

I would be far more upset if I was told I couldn't wear make-up Grin

CurrySpice · 06/09/2011 12:57

Selky if the uniform was a skirt then knee highs are not acceptable on any level Wink

I have never been told what to waer / not wear. But then I waer make up and heels anyway

redexpat · 06/09/2011 13:02

Make up: it is to look professional and finished. Unfortunately no one ever told me this before I was about 27 so never got a job until then. I can't see how it has any bearing on how well I do a job, but understand now it's a presentation thing, like wearing smart clean clothes, brushing your teeth and hair etc. Men are expected to shave or have groomed facial hair.

Shoes I am with you 100%. I've never been able to wear them without it causing back problems.

AnnieLobeseder · 06/09/2011 13:08

I love that my profession is full of sensible intelligent women, and as such it's a natural consequence that anyone in heels or make-up is the exception to the rule and stands out a mile, and I must shamefully admit, may come in for ridicule behind her back.

I went to a conference earlier in the year and have never seen so many women in gorgeous flat shoes in my life!

kelly2000 · 06/09/2011 13:08

Why is a woman less finished because she is not wearing make up, if she is clean and tidy then why is that not OK? Men are not expected to wear make-up although it is available for them. It is discrimination to not hire someone because they do not wear make-up if the only people who do not get hired for this reason are women.

Original poster
carriedababi · 06/09/2011 13:10

thanks for all the replies, i'll make dh read them tonight so he can see how things are for women.

his answer last night, and probably tonight willbe,women should refuse to work anywhere that expects you to wear heels and make up.

and if we women take jobs where we get told to wear heels and make up its our own fault.

OP posts:
WilsonFrickett · 06/09/2011 13:11

expat are you seriously telling me you couldn't get a job till you were 27 because you didn't wear make-up to your interviews? Hmm

I was once told to smarten up when I was very young, but I think that was fair enough as I really didn't have many clothes and was a bit hippy/wafty for the office I worked in. I very definitely didn't wear make-up at work, which I think made me stand out from everyone else, but tbh I couldn't give a monkey's. I don't wear heels and never had, and I eventuallly developed a way to look 'business smart' without wearing skirts or suits, although that took a bit of time.

I'm sure I would have fitted in more if I'd work suits, heels and slap but have no evidence that it hindered my career...

Cocoflower · 06/09/2011 13:14

"love that my profession is full of sensible intelligent women, and as such it's a natural consequence that anyone in heels or make-up is the exception to the rule and stands out a mile, and I must shamefully admit, may come in for ridicule behind her back."

You would ridicule someone for choosing to dress how the they like?

How bitchy. You think your superior as you dont put mascara on? Never heard anything so judgemental in my life.

kelly2000 · 06/09/2011 13:21

Carrie,
so his attitude is thta companies can discriminate against women by requiring they put chemicals on their faces, but not men. Ask him if he think it would be OK if women were not hired because they would not wear a veil?

Annie,
Ridiculing someone for wearing make-up just because they stand out is just as bad as being ridiculed for not wearing make-up. It certainly makes those doing the ridiculing look stupid and narrow minded.

ZZZenAgain · 06/09/2011 13:21

I agree with pointissima that it is about achieving the level of formality required by your job, the setting; however I think you can do this in every instance without high heels or make-up

I would never wear high heels to work and thankfully I have never been expected to. I also don't need women around me to wear make-up. If they do, ok; if they don't, it is also ok with me.

I was surprised earlier in the thread someone posted that she wouldn't liked to be served by someone who had not put on foundation but tbh I just want food served by someone who looks clean and tidy and it wouldn't register with me even that the face bore no make up. I would notice a generally unkempt appearance, straggly or unwashed hair, dirty fingernails, stained clothes etc but not the absence of make-up in itself

AnnieLobeseder · 06/09/2011 13:24

coco and kelly - I said it was shameful. My point was more that whichever way your industry goes wrt appearance, those not conforming to the local standard tend to be judged.

But, rightly or wrongly, on seeing random women in the street I will judge their intelligence to be indirectly proportional to amount to makeup they wear, the height of their heels and the amount of cleavage on display.

ZZZenAgain · 06/09/2011 13:32

IME there is truth in that. You will be judged in a negative light as a woman for wearing make-up, high heels and so on in some professions, in some types of business and considered not to be a serious professional in the field. It definitely does happen.

CurrySpice · 06/09/2011 13:34

Coco they don't sound very sensible or intelligent to me if they ridicule people behind their back for their appearance

I work in PR - a pretty shallow industry you would have thought. I have never heard anyone being judged for their appearance by their female colleagues

And you assume people are thick if they wear high heels?!? Charming!!

(I wear heels every single day and if I was thick I wouldn't be able to say I think you mean inversely not indirectly! Wink :o)

Welcome to the sisterhood eh? Hmm

AbsDuWolef · 06/09/2011 13:35

I work in the city, and have never ever heard of women being told to wear heels and make up (apart from the occassional HR email leaked to here is the city - but never in RL). I know some law firms used to have a woman in who would advise grads on how to dress professionally (which may have included this), but most people ignored her because she had such bad taste in clothes. I do think that some guidelines are advisable, particularly for people who've never worked in a corporate environment before

It is expected that you dress smartly and appropriately, particularly in client facing roles e.g. men should wear suit and ties in meetings with clients, women dressed well.

They only time i've heard of someone nearly getting into trouble for not being very smartly dressed was at one bank - her colleague complained as this girl was wearing looser, more casual clothing because she was newly pregnant and didn't want everyone to know, so this girl had to tell her manager why and that was the end of it. I think the colleague was a bit of a bitch, TBH

kelly2000 · 06/09/2011 13:41

Curry,
Coco was objecting to something annie had said. Coco disagreed with them ridiculing people for being different to them.

nocake · 06/09/2011 13:41

I worked for the Bank of England from 2003 until 2008 and can tell you that the dress code for all employees was relatively relaxed. No ties for the men and certainly no requirement for women to wear high heels or makeup.

ZZZenAgain · 06/09/2011 13:44

what is the point really in ties?

ZZZenAgain · 06/09/2011 13:45

I don't really see the point in high heels for working clothes and I equally don't see the point in ties. I can't really get worked up about either but they seem like left-overs from a bygone age we don't really need as working gear

just my opinion...

Cocoflower · 06/09/2011 13:45

CurrySpice

I had copied and pasted what AnnieLobeseder had said in the speech marks!

It wasn't me how said the top part. My comments below were about the bits I had copied and pasted:

You would ridicule someone for choosing to dress how the they like?

How bitchy. You think your superior as you dont put mascara on? Never heard anything so judgemental in my life

So we have said the same thing- only you got the wrong poster :(

AbsDuWolef · 06/09/2011 13:45

So you have something to dip in soup.

I personally wear heels at work, all the time, as it makes me MUCH taller than my managers and it's pretty intimidating for them, come review time ... mwah ha ha

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