The God Delusion

[YummyHoney]

In thinking that Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion should be compulsory reading for all secondary school children?

Not only would it put paid to all the religious nonsense some parents spout, it would also put an end to a lot of wars and violence in the world.

It was a very depressing film.

Though I always liked the line "hell is not a place; it is a state of mind"

I suppose I see truth in that

DTD, you summed it pretty well, despite it being hard to write. I think that is what most of us fear for, the ones we leave behind, certainly true for me anyway.

Erm, some right rubbish is being written now!

"I can see that theists find this exceptionally hard to grasp"

and

"I suppose that makes it easier for us to see your POV at times than for you to see ours"

I was actually an atheist so I dont agree with a lot you have said and have quite a different insight.

Im sorry but you really cannot talk about all atheists as the spokes person of 'them' Im not sure all what you says applies.

If you think people who beleive in God only behave out of fear of 'cosmic law', well for me- wrong!

I do not even believe in hell.

Im sorry, I have to say...

it must be so boring to only ever have the guts to believe in anything important if the scientists 'let' you and give you your data and evidence you need.

I absolutely do not think that I have a right to speak for all atheists and I have never said so - please do not twist my words! FWIW, I am doing my best to remain respectful here, please reciprocate.

In what way exactly are non-believers supposed to fear eternity if not due to some sort of cosmic justice, then? Not noticing eternity is hardly something to fear, precisely because you don't notice it. Therefore you clearly must believe that we believe there is something rather than nothing. Otherwise what is there to fear?

It doesn't make sense.

Also, do you not believe in good and evil then? Or that our conduct in this life has some kind of an impact on our existence after death?

If not I'm actually interested to hear more. On the other hand if you do you clearly have some kind of a conception of divine justice.

So you're basically saying you chose to believe any old bull without a shred of evidence on the basis that it makes your life more exciting? And you're implying that you are therefore brave?

But I don't think you were being respectful to say things like "I can see that theists find this exceptionally hard to grasp"! Its implying stupidity. Moving on...

I do think deep down some atheists are so becuase they fear hell - they will often end their comments with things such as "well if there is hell I will have a great time partying then!" which shows there is some part of them that does think of it as a possibility. So rather than face up to this fear (or change their ways) its far easier to say they are an atheist (of course in the true sense they are not). It is not that they do not beleive, it is becuase they do; but like to retain head-in-the-sand.

I believe in good and evil- from humans not the supernatural as such. Anyone is capable of either. I think very few people are born inherently evil- if any at all.

If you think about it if the afterlife is real and for all eternity you are left with the memories of your time on earth you have in many ways made your own heaven or hell. If you have done evil you will be forever haunted with that knowledge; of you have done good you will feel peace.

I sometimes imagine God will play us a tape of our lives and let us experience how the other person felt by what we did to them. Of course I have no evidence at all of this! I just think how would we feel as the person on the other side of our actions.

Ahh no- because my "shred of evidence" is based on my personal experience- I just do not need it signed off by a scientist. If I lacked my own experience there is no foundation for my belief.

Not any old bull- there is plently others believe in but I do not. Up to them.

Its implying stupidity. Moving on...
Not really. It's an acknowledgement of the fact that it is virtually impossible to truly imagine a part of your reality truly different, sometimes. Like imagining an alien intelligent life form. We always seem to assume they're a little like us when depicting them. Faces, speech, often generan anatomy. Not a given at all if you think about it rationally - but apparently not something our brain gets around very easily.

For example, I've been asked why I "hate god" a million times. I don't, how can I hate something that doesn't exist in my mind. I do think that some believers have a hard time truly grasping what it means not no believe in a god, simply because it's such an integral part of their reality that their entire conception of it basically fails without it. Not stupid, simply very god centred.

I do think deep down some atheists are so because they fear hell - they will often end their comments with things such as "well if there is hell I will have a great time partying then!"

Never thought about it that way. I always saw that one as a nonsensical humorous response to Pascal's wager, which is of course also pretty nonsensical (even from a theist point of view).

If you have done evil you will be forever haunted with that knowledge
Interesting POV. Where would that leave, say, a psychopath. Someone who truly lacks empathy and guilt but who has done plenty of evil by anyone else's standards?

Dan Brown was not my choice and I doubt I shall ever read anything of his again. I didn't hate it, it just wasn't my cup of tea. However, it did get me thinking about evidence (although I ended up confused last night about whether I had read the some of the discussion on here or in the book)

Anyway, if you could measure the soul or if human thought/prayer had the power to move objects or change the physical world that might be sufficient evidence to me to suggest that there is something supernatural to believe in. However, no matter how controlled those experiements are and how convincing the result there will be a group of people who will never be convinced because they don't want to be. It would better, to say there is evidence I don't accept rather than there is no evidence but I am probably expecting too much of them. There are some who would be afraid to open their minds to the possibility and I reckon there are others who are so caught up in the physical world and the tangible that they wouldn't recognise God if he came and shook their hand. I have to agree with Coco that some people are unable to think beyond the physical and so are never going to understand such things anyway.

To me and a lot of other people I know who do have a faith, if hell exists it is merely as the absence of heaven. So if you don't make it to heaven you are just worm food. I don't know why atheists would fear that since that is what they were expecting anyway so they don't have to worry.

My apologies I thought you were been rude. But now you have explained I agree; yes I suppose we will use ourself as a reference point- after all this is all we truly know.

"Where would that leave, say, a psychopath."

I suppose in their case they would never feel haunted as they could not comprehend what they have done due to lack of empathy.

Not believing has little to do with guts Coco, not believing is not so different from believing, in as much as it is a matter of opinion.

There is nothing boring about believing facts. This is what most logical people do in most areas of their life as a matter of course. As Athegoddess says there is nothing exciting about not believing facts.

For some atheists to fear hell, they would have to believe in it in the first place.

I would say most evil people do not have a conscience to be haunted by it.

The last bit about God playing a tape, does he have a video recorder, i find it difficult enough to imagine God, let alone with a video recorder!!

Can i ask if it was proven by science that God didnt exist, would you still believe?

Oh and another point of view is God actually wipes your memories anyway- the reasoning is that how you you truly be in paradise if say you know you are seperated from your child who is still on earth?

But really- who knows?

I suppose I should also say in the interests of balance and to avoid any accusation that I am making atheists out to be unable think outside the anrrow confines of the here and now, that I am sure that there equally those with a faith who haven't thought about what it means to believe in God or why they believe, especially amongst the older generation who just go to church because they always have.

"Can i ask if it was proven by science that God didnt exist, would you still believe?"

How would this happen though? Its impossible

Again there is not really "facts" with God is there- what I mean is always having to have any belief validated seems dull IMO.

Perhaps Im far too much of a rebel!

"The last bit about God playing a tape, does he have a video recorder, i find it difficult enough to imagine God, let alone with a video recorder!!"

Yes- s/he has probably moved on now- maybe its all on youtube!

Coco i dont know how it would happen, but if it was proven by science that God existed and there was evidence to support that he did, i would believe.

So regardless of how, if was proven and there was evidence, that he didnt exist, would you not believe? (dont worry its not a trick question!)

watching your life on youtube would be so more modern, video tape is sooo yesterday!

Good posts Niece

Have you ever read Scott Pecks levels of spirtuality?

That actually explained to me clearly why there is so many different levels of belief and non-belief

There are those who dont care either way
Those Who are fantatical and literal
Those who turn their back on God and move onto science
Those who believe but critcally and liberally
Those who marry science and spirituality perfectly

It fascinates me how there is so many different ways of looking at the world

Well yes, because I trust my own evidence. It something I can't turn my back on- hard to explain really.

A vicar I once knew believed that you didn't meet your loved ones in heaven as such. They were just other people, nothing special since everybody was full of love and in harmony with everybody else anyway. I quite liked that as it solved the problem of what happens if you have been happily married twice (ie. widowed and then remarried) - who would be your husband? and what if you loved somebody who didn't love you? All sorted by everybody loving everybody else. Very cosy.

Oh and another point of view is God actually wipes your memories anyway

Okay, I struggle with this one. How can there even be memories if memories are basically tied to our physical existence? I.e. our brain?

We can tell they are because it is possible to lose some or all of your memories without even being dead. Such as in the case of post traumatic retrograde amnesia?

And, extrapolating from there: How would it even be possible for us to remember who the hell we are in the afterlife given that our harddisk has gone missing?

How would we be able to feel anything when sensory perception is a physical function? (On the basis of this I would have to rule out the traditional view of eternal torture by burning in hell for the lack of nerve cells and/or any flammable version of self. Not suggesting anyone here actually believes this.)

I suppose if you are simply a soul in the afterlife you have no physical body. So perhaps no wiping required; its automatic. Yes then how do we know who or what we are? Are we a baby again in our blank state?

But see you the laws of nature won't apply in the afterlife as its a spirtual realm- so really it beyond any of our understanding if it is real.

However, really nobody can say for sure- we cannot say if it exsist's we cannot say what it will be like.

Another theory; Some people believe noone is in hell or heaven- we are simply dead until the day of judgement.

You've forgotten you are talking about God. If he wants you to remember, the fact that you don't have your earthly brain is not an issue. He'd simply do a data transfer. Your hard drive might be missing but presumably God has done a back up and can reload it again on arrival in heaven where you would get a new hard drive with unlimited capacity.

Im really struggling too. Just because no one can say for sure, people can just believe what they want, based on nothing other than what they want to believe?

What are referring to Claw?

Do you mean as we cannot prove wither way what is fact, just let everyone beleive what they want about anything- God, after life etc?