The God Delusion

[YummyHoney]

In thinking that Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion should be compulsory reading for all secondary school children?

Not only would it put paid to all the religious nonsense some parents spout, it would also put an end to a lot of wars and violence in the world.

We are all eternal.

Speaking only for myself, I have had experiences which make it easier for me to believe in afterlife and god. So I am happy to do so. To do otherwise would be contrary to my experential learning and growth.

I understand that others have different experiences, and beliefs. Cool. I do not think less of anyone because they do not think or believe what I do. I enjoy that their difference gives me new understanding and makes me think more.

I do worry however when people are offensive to what they perceive as other, when they diminish the achievements of others, call them stupid, their beliefs twaddle. I particularly worry when they preach that the way of the other is the reason for badness in the world and that only their way is right.

No idea.

Was a text version of an ichthys not a very good one though

I agree with your post Dione

Some people simply do not have a spiritual side, its a shame for them but you cannot mock someone for having that side to them that you may not understand.

Ohh... I see! It looked like a cat doing cute blinking!

Hmm, Coco, let me try to answer these from my perspective.

The main point, though, is this: most atheists might not believe that faith in a god is generally a good thing. But even if they did, the point is that from oyr POV it's basically an irrelevant question. To an atheist, saying "believing in god is good" is like saying "a cure for AIDS is good", i.e. Even if we were to agree the point still stands that the supposedly good thing doesn't exist. So you're really looking at this in a way that doesn't make much sense to us. Nonetheless, let me try and address your points:

1, 5-8 I would summarize as a belief in god basically being comforting. This doesn't apply to atheists, as we, understandably I suppose, take zero comfort from something we consider to be false. Of course we still find reassurance and comfort in many of the same things religious people do as well, family, community, ranting to strangers on the internet, etc.

2 Is a really tricky one. Enter the problem of evil. What is the reason god is letting Somali children starve, then? And how is this moral, since God could presumably stop it? Whole essays have been written on this, suffice to say it comes with a whole rat tails of issues attached to it.

3 If you can prove this in a double blind study the setup of which convinces a panel of leading research scientists from a variety of disciplines, I am willing to convert to your religion and give the rest of its claims the benefit of the doubt. Hasn't happened yet, though. Wonder why?

4 Like what? The origins of the universe or something? If any religion can prove this, again I'll convert in the spot and this time there won't be anythng left to doubt.

9 & 10: Fine, I personally happen to think that one of the primary reasons why people believe in gods is this. Or more precisely, the fact that they are afraid of death. That doesn't make it true. And the good news is that probably we won't have awareness to be upset that we're dead and miss our loved ones.

It?s exceptionally hard to describe why someone believes unless you have that relationship, experience and knowledge of God. You cannot turn your back on him/her once you have made that connection. It is a hugely powerful thing. Scientific studies are not very analogous to this connection- it is just fallible people trying to measure the immeasurable. It is not important to us. I suppose it is like someone telling you they do not approve of someone you love and they want to test in to prove their point through science- they cannot understand as an outsider. It?s very hard to express.

Yes people find huge amounts of comfort in God- atheists seem to think we believe out of fear, when in fact is because of the positivity of the connection. I think this a immense thing- who would deny someone finding comfort after the loss of a loved in a belief of God? However If that belief has the power to become so comforting and ultimately healing you must question: why?

The problem of evil is not something I claim to have the answer too- though I do believe a lot of suffering is bought on by people themselves due to their own freewill (natural disasters aside). Not many people will admit that though as people do not like to take blame. It is this very question which provides people a huge conflict over their belief.

Again I do not feel any need to attest my prayers have worked to some scientists- again there is so much emphasis placed on scientist!

I will tell you my life has improved dramatically since I started believing in God (which was not long ago just a few years). I might not always get want I want but I do what I need. But frankly you cannot just believe because it might benefit you!

No, not the origins of the universe! Knowledge about people in your life. I have known things through dreams and feelings that tuned put to be true that are have no explanation as to how I gained that knowledge.

It is very natural to fear death- even atheists do! There is no shame in that. But what harm is it to anyone to keep the belief death is not the end? That after all this suffering there is a far better place .If that keeps the flame of hope alive; so be it.

Btw- I realised it looks like Im speaking on behalf of all relgious people- opps obviously I can only talk for me as an my own person so sorry!

The idea of a heaven is far scarier than the idea of nothing to me. Believing in nothing seems the easy way out -you don't have to worry about anything because you know that once you are gone you are gone. If you believe in the afterlife, which nobody on earth knows anything about obviously, what will it be like, what is required of you?

Seems to be me far braver to believe in something bigger than yourself, who watches you but won't rescue you from your earthly mistakes, holds you accountable and then takes you some place you can't even begin to comprehend.

Suffice to say I don't get the argument that believers are some how less brave or are weak and use God as a crutch. Seems far less scary to think that nothing you do has much of an impact and that this is all there is.

This thread is messing with my head slightly. I went to a book group meeting last night and discussed The Lost Symbol where a lot of this stuff is talked about. Anybody else read it? Anyway, they talk of a noetic science experiment to measure the weight of the soul. Also, about the power of the mind and very briefly they touched on the power of prayer. I reckon that if the soul was found to be a quantifiable thing and prayer could be powerful it would go some way to be enough to say that there is a God. However, to me, a belief in God is not enough to say you have a faith. Having a faith is about having a relationship with God and even if I believed he existed I still reckon it would be like knowing that the president of the US exists - I know he is there but I'm never going have a relationship of any kind with him so his existence is a matter of interest but not something that greatly affects me.

When you die you lose 7 grams....

Make that 27g

By the way there are plently of examples in real life of prayer being answered- the problem is it is dismissed.

Why? Because it is not scientifically proved.

But again you cannot prove the supernatural with natural methods.

Which brings us back in one big circle.

"Believing in nothing seems the easy way out"

Yes coupled with hell being mentioned many, many times in this thread...maybe too it is a fear of death and eternity that spooks so many atheists....

NADE here - name change inspired by the thread!

Okay, just for the record, whatever is or is not brave has absolutely zero to do with what is true or not:

Facing a fire breathing dragon is arguably much braver than facing an afternoon with my MIL. That does't mean dragons exist and my MIL doesn't. Which is a complete shame, by the way.

Furthermore I am absolutely refusing to discuss anything written by Dan Brown. I am normally a rational person but admit to a fear that my IQ might immediately fall by 25 points if I do. I have absolutely no evidence to support this.

I absolutely would love to discuss the problem of evil. I think that needs a whole new thread, though.

Agree that a fear of death is normal. Again, however, the fact that believing might help mitigate the fear does not make the belief in question factually correct.

I do not believe because I fear dying. I have experienced a lot of death in my life and I'm not afraid of it. Indeed only one person that I have known who has died has feared it. The rest have welcomed it when their time has come.

"the fact that believing might help mitigate the fear does not make the belief in question factually correct."

Yet you do not know the fact either way though do you?

No one does. So as trite as it sounds, you can question this forever so how do you settle it for yoursel? You beleive whatever makes you happiest really.

I do believe your own beliefs are also motivated by fear in some part- it makes you happiest to believe in no consquence- bet you wont admit it to it though!

Oooh Coco, your views on eternity in relation to this thread is very interesting.

Thats intresting Dione

For those who welcomed it were they relgious , atheist or a mix?

Where did you hear you lose 27g when you die?

Mostly religious, but two were atheists. The only one who had fear knew her death would expose her (not really that terrible) lies and hurt her family. She was religious.

As for the others. It is hard to explain. They told me they wanted to die. The pain had become too much, or they had lived so long that not only did they want the pain to end, but their siblings, partners and friends had died and they wanted to be with them. I knew they wanted to die and was ok with that. And then came the pretence.

Because people of faith or none, tend to cling to whatever hope is given to them. When the soon to die mentions their imminent death, they are told "no, no, I have spoken to the doctor/ you seem so much better/ we're having a party for you when you get home".
When I have spoken of what they told me, I am told "don't say that, it will upset whoever...." or "shut up, you don't know what you're talking about".

When I think of it now, I feel priviledged. I am glad that my dead family and friends could be themselves with me, right to the end. I also feel wick that, well, I don't really know why I feel bad about it. It's hard to express. But it has less to do with death and the dying than those who are left behind.

Anyway, in my experience, most people are ready and welcome death when it comes. The only one who did not, feared it, not because it was death, but because of how she dealt with life.

Oh balls I mean 21g!

I first heard the theory in a movie called "21 grams" with Naomi Watts.

The idea is thats your soul leaving your body. Wether its true or not or if the weight could be attirtbuted to loss of gases etc I don't know!

Forgive me if that last post was all over the place. It was hard.

Intresting post Dione

My aunty works in pallative care. She says 99% of people get a huge amount of calm and peace about them on their final days.

I was quite surprised to hear that.

I thought it was the film, there is little truth behind it though, apparently one person lost 21 grams in 1907, at the moment of death, that is where it comes from.

You beleive whatever makes you happiest really.

Well, no. You go with what seems most likely on the basis of the available evidence.

I do believe your own beliefs are also motivated by fear in some part- it makes you happiest to believe in no consquence- bet you wont admit it to it though!

Actually my stance is motivated by the fact that a) there is no verifiable evidence of an afterlife - never mind the christian version with heaven and hell - available and b) available knowledge WRT the functions of the human brain.

This consequences thing is again something that just doesn't apply to non-believers. Because we do not believe in a god we also do not believe in god given rules that need to be enforced and for which there is some kind of an eternal justice system. The entire rat tail of ideas of consequences, fear of damnation etc. stems from the original idea that there is such a thing as divine law.

To atheists, behaving in an ethical way may be desirable (most of us actually happen to think it is). We also commonly think that unethical behaviour needs to be dealt with. However, the reasons for this are rooted in our presence in the here and now, not some form of cosmic law. Accordingly, any form of justice can only be administered by ourselves. While we are alive.

I can see that theists find this exceptionally hard to grasp. I suppose that's because you find it impossible to imagine a world without the supernatural. Most atheists I know are former believers. I suppose that makes it easier for us to see your POV at times than for you to see ours.

Dione:

Agreed, people who feel their time has come generally tend to welcome death in my experience. However, this applies to believers an non-believers alike. And, in my experience of seeing people die in war, it most definitely does not apply to even devout believers who are young and simply not ready to go. And then there was my grandmother, CofE but I suspect not in fact much of a believer in private, who had a morbid fascination with her own demise and loved to talk about how she was soon going to kick the bucket - starting at least forty years before she actually did according to my mother.