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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

why is "village idiot" disablist, but "loon" not?

214 replies

porcamiseria · 17/08/2011 09:22

sorry not picking on the poster that used the term "loon" but interesting that mitmoo got fucking CANED, and the other OP did not

smacks to me as an excuse for people to kick the living shit out of a poster that has annoyed them

you bullies! I dont agree with what mitmoo has posted . however I think this is more about bullying annoyance at a certain poster, using the PC excuse of disablist language

nuff said

OP posts:
Mitmoo · 18/08/2011 09:01

I've just done an advanced search on thread titles for the use of the word idiot. This is just the top section.

Im an idiot, a bloody idiot
slimbo
Mental health
Im an idiot
puddinmama
Telly addicts
An Idiot Abroad
Songbird
Telly addicts
An Idiot Abroad...
Paranoid1stTimer
Recipes
praline for idiots?
phdlife
Feminism/women's rights
Fucking idiots
LadyOfTheManor
In the news
Idiots on BB?
monkeytrousers
Relationships
Embarrasing idiot
cruela
Relationships
Bloody idiot
Fuming81
Food
idiot alert!!
trixiethepixie
Relationships
Im an idiot
imanidiot
Pedants' corner
The idiots are winning.
tethersend
Primary education
idiot woman!!!!!!!
Jux
Ebay
Ebay idiot
thegirlwithso...
Relationships
An idiot AGAIN
fluffypuff
Lesbian/Gay Parents
i'm such an idiot
twattymcclose...

There are literally thousands of them.

I use the word, and all hell let's loose. This is what I mean by faux outrage

SoupDragon · 18/08/2011 09:03

Idiot = foolish or unwise person. According to Chambers, the use of it to mean a person of IQ less than 20 is now obsolete. I would say this word is fine if not used as an insult to someone with SNs.

Village = a group of houses etc smaller than a town. As a description, absolutely fine.

Put them toegether, however, and you arrive at a term used to describe the most stupid person in a community, rooted in the fact that in the past those with SNs would be mocked. Not really a good idea to use this to describe someone in the manner in which it was used.

Is it bullying to point this out to someone who apparently has their fingers in their ears singing "lalalala I'm not listening"?

Mitmoo · 18/08/2011 09:05

soup you could say the same then for moron another search for how it is used without the vulture swoop that happened yesterday.

Am I being unreasonable?
easy jet morons
ledkr
Am I being unreasonable?
To think my FIL is a moron?
Hazeleyedbaby
Relationships
Am I a complete moron?
CatPower
Conception
I'm a moron!
Snakeears
Relationships
I am such a fucking moron
HollyBollyBooBoo
Relationships
Is he a complete moron or what
hadabadday
Sleb twaddle
Moronic Mail Headline...
Flamesparrow
Am I being unreasonable?
to ban morons from Facebook?
Mermaidspam
Politics
That song : "Gordon is a Moron"
zebedeethezebra
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBU to expect my mum not to be such a MORON?
bupcakesandcu...
Recipes
Moron-proof cake recipe?
LuckyC
Teenagers
Are all teenage boys tv morons?
fizzbuzz
Good housekeeping
Quick help with dust for

Again the list goes into thousands. I could go on finding words that others might read into it as beign "disablist when NOTHING* is ever said.

SoupDragon · 18/08/2011 09:06

Mitmoo, you didn't use the word idiot, you used the phrase "village idiot". There is a clear difference.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/08/2011 09:06

Exactly what soup said. It's the combination. Just as 'nut' and 'house' can be perfectly innocuous on their own.

Honestly mitmoo, don't feel as if it's something you have to justify because people jumped - it's obvious you didn't start out by using it to offend, so it's no reflection on you. Just one of those things. IMO.

SoupDragon · 18/08/2011 09:08

The medical definition of "moron" is no longer used as it happens "a former category of mental impairment describing a person with an IQ of 50-69, ie one who remains at the mental age of 8-12"

LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/08/2011 09:08

Btw - and after this I must go, so don't think I'm ignoring you - the fact that loads of people use dodgy terms on here is no proof they won't offend. If you google 'shouty feminist' or insulting terms about women, you'll get loads of results, mostly in teh feminism sectionn. Doesn't mean feminists like te terms!

SoupDragon · 18/08/2011 09:09

The primary definition of the word "moron" is now "a somewhat feebleminded person"

Hurled a an insult towards someone with SNs it is clearly offensive. Otherwise? [shrug]

Mitmoo · 18/08/2011 09:19

soup I did use the word village idiot that is how the lady acted.

Main Entry: village idiot

Part of Speech: n

Definition: a stupid or ignorant person well known for low intelligence in their village or town

I had explained the context I broke down in a village and she acted like a flipping idiiot, hence my choice of words.

I don't get your point about "moron" no longer being a medical definition.

You consider the term "village idiot" to be disablist, then surely you have to also find the term "moron" under that same umbrella?

So why is it widely used and never challenged?

SuePurblybilt · 18/08/2011 09:40

Mitmoo. The other day, in a pfftd thread now, I used the term 'Professionally Offended', a phrase that in my house means the type of person who writes to Points Of View, frothing at the mouth. As I pressed 'post' I remembered that that particular phrase had a loaded history on MN and, sure enough, a couple of (lovely) posters queried my meaning.

So I apologised, explained that I'd remembered the above and, had the thread not been due to be deleted, I would have offered to ask MN to amend my post. I meant no offence and still use the phrase in RL but I won't on MN because it has a whole ton of baggage and is very likely to offend people. It has another meaning here and not one that I agree with.

Can you not just accept that the phrase you used offends people on MN, whether or not you understand why or think it fair? I understand your argument about other similar words (though am not giving up 'loon' without a fight Grin) but I'm not at all sure you're helping yourself. Surely in RL if you offend someone, whether or not it's intentional or even rational, you apologise and move on?

milkmilklemonade · 18/08/2011 09:53

This is why the world laughs at you crazy women.

Whatmeworry · 18/08/2011 09:57

The list of words that someone finds offensive just grows and grows, having someone get in a lather over a word used is just an occupational hazard of talking online now.

itisnearlysummer · 18/08/2011 10:17

I didn't read all of the other thread, and did make a comment early on. It was intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek and slightly light hearted but I gather from this that is went on to gather much momentum and turned quite unpleasant.

Tbh, I don't actually have an issue with the term 'village idiot', in fact the only reason I made a comment at all was for this reason...

I read so many OPs on here where someone complains about the behaviour of someone they encountered and within a few posts there are outraged people responding "how dare you, they might have had SN. How would you feel if x, y, z". In many cases, it wouldn't be possible to know if someone had SN or not, but that wouldn't stop their behaviour from being annoying to the person on the receiving end.

So there is an expectation from many people that everyone will go throughout their life not being upset or annoyed by another person's behaviour, or be completely accepting of it, on the off chance that said person might have SN.

I just thought it was a bit Hmm that someone who often talks about their child with SN and would, presumably, expect them to be able to live their life free from inappropriate name-calling and comments, would use the same pejorative language to talk about someone else.

Bit rich. That's all!

LRDTheFeministDragon · 18/08/2011 10:24

Which women? Who women? There are women on the thread?

Thumbwitch · 18/08/2011 10:44

www.dailywritingtips.com/idiots-imbeciles-and-morons/
The bits in quotemarks are from a medical encyclopaedia.
Cretinism - I have no doubt at all that it is clearly stated all over the internet.

The "village idiot" theory that they may have congenital syphilis I was taught in my second degree.

Hey ho.

Ledkr - have PMd you because I still am Confused as to why it is wrong to call it a hare lip - it was called that precisely because it looks like a hare's lip! Can't see who is being offended there, unless it's the hares.

Kladdkaka · 18/08/2011 11:00

I wonder how many of those who don't find 'village idiot' offensive have actually experienced being labelled and mocked as such. Hmm

ExitPursuedByATroll · 18/08/2011 11:04

Hare lip is offensive Shock

I loved Ryan's Daughter.

Thumbwitch · 18/08/2011 11:05

"Can't see who is being offended there, unless it's the hares."
Please note, this is in no way meant to mean that hares should be offended by having children with partially cleft palates likened to them. I shouldn't even have said it in mild jest, it was a stupid thing to say and I apologise. Blush

namefortheday · 18/08/2011 11:08

I use Loon. It's a type of water fowl you know.

Cattleprod · 18/08/2011 11:13

I wondered what everybody thinks of the title of the childrens programme 'Something Special'. The word 'Special' on its own, in the context of children with disabilities which is the main focus of this programme, is mentioned upthread by Veronica in the same category of offensiveness as retard etc. Clearly 'Special Needs' is an acceptable term, but if you substitute any of the other words listed you would get a horribly offensive show title, and Justin (and Mr Tumble) would quite rightly become hated by every parent in the country.

Thumbwitch - Here. It's basically because of old associations of hares with witchcraft and the devil - iirc there were times when babies with the condition were killed at birth, and possibly their mothers too as having a baby with a cleft was seen as proof that she had associations with satan. Thankfully doesn't happen now or I wouldn't be here!!

itisnearlysummer · 18/08/2011 11:31

I don't find it personally offensive because I've never been called it.

However, I appreciate that other people might find this, and other words offensive, and therefore I don't use them.

Often, people without experience of SN use words without realising that others might find them offensive because they just haven't thought about it.

I was surprised that someone with experience of SN was willing to use the phrase so flippantly.

Thumbwitch · 18/08/2011 11:36

Cattleprod - thanks! That is news to me, and I will refrain from using the term forthwith. Cleft lip it is from now on!

Re. something special - I think it's fine (but then I'm not a parent of a child with SN) because it's not calling some one special. I thought the offensiveness of using the word special lay in calling someone "special" in a derogatory tone but I'm prepared to be educated about that as well.

porcamiseria · 18/08/2011 11:43

WHAT HAVE I LEARNT?

that its very easy to say a term is NOT derogatory, but unless you have been at the reciving end your feeling has little credence. So me (zero SN experience) can say "oh villiage idiots OK". But if someone with SN experience dislikes it, their opinion has more weight than mine

MN IS full of bullies that badwaggon jump in the name of beng PC, ie if 10 posters insult an OP, its OK to jump in and kick them too. I still think that, bit all I can do is moderate myself ( ha ha, with my language) and call it when I see it

OP posts:
2shoes · 18/08/2011 12:03

I always thought something special was called that as it was special,
there are next to no programmes on tv for sn kids, so it is special in that sense.

getting a bit tired of all the posts accusingaccusing people of things like this. "MN IS full of bullies that badwaggon jump in the name of beng PC"

the op on the other thread will not accept she used an offensive term, surely it shouldn't be ignored, would you accept racism being ignored?

TandB · 18/08/2011 12:55

I think that the discussion about use of language is a small part of a much more important issue.

MN has a massive cross-section of (mainly female) society. There are people on here with all sorts of situations and backgrounds, so as a user you are exposed to life experiences that are often far removed from what you experience in your own life. A lot of us have relatively narrow social circles - in that we have friends and family who are in similar financial brackets, working in similar sorts of jobs, with fairly similar outlook on many things.

On MN you get a chance to hear about things from points of view that you would never normally be exposed to. For example, we have a couple of friends with children with autism, but they are not people we see regularly and I therefore know relatively little about their day to day lives. I don't know anyone with a child with a serious physical disability, although I was in and out of a wheelchair myself as a child. The reality of living with a disabled child or one with special needs is therefore something that I would know little about were it not for MN.

Having been exposed to different ideas and situations it would be rank arrogance for me to continue to assume that my outlook on life is adopted by everyone else in the world. I think I have pretty mainstream views - I don't consider myself a thoughtless person and I value things like courtesy, kindness, a work ethic, honesty etc. So I would imagine my outlook overlaps with that of many other people - but I don't assume it is identical. MN really brings that home to me. I often see people take offence at something that would not have particularly occurred to me as offensive. Sometimes I think they are being silly or deliberately confrontational, but more often I read a bit more about their circumstances, or simply think about what they are saying, and realise that there is a good reason for their stance.

I have my own personal views on what is an is not acceptable - everyone does - but being part of a community like MN is, for me, about being flexible in how you assert those views. Offensiveness is not solely determined by the user of a particular word - it is dependant on context and on who the listener is. There is nothing wrong with thinking "well, I think you are being a bit over-sensitive" but still moderating your use of language in accordance with what people around you are saying about it. You don't have to be all wishy-washy and just say what people want to hear, but equally there is no need to aggressively assert your right to free speech at the expense of others' sensibilities.

Language grows and changes all the time, as does society. It is quite possible that a few years down the line some of these terms that have been discussed will have lost their connection with their offensive roots. I also think that the more inclusive we become as a society, the less these arguments will arise. If people with learning disabilities are seen as full and valuable members of society, the occasional use of an old-fashioned offensive term is likely to attract less censure as there simply won't be the need for such robust rooting-out of potential prejudice. People will be more inclined to accept that it was just a slip-up by someone not thinking.