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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

why is "village idiot" disablist, but "loon" not?

214 replies

porcamiseria · 17/08/2011 09:22

sorry not picking on the poster that used the term "loon" but interesting that mitmoo got fucking CANED, and the other OP did not

smacks to me as an excuse for people to kick the living shit out of a poster that has annoyed them

you bullies! I dont agree with what mitmoo has posted . however I think this is more about bullying annoyance at a certain poster, using the PC excuse of disablist language

nuff said

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/08/2011 11:40

Pagwatch... When I was 17 and at college I was friends with a group of girls. One (popular) girl was given the nickname of 'Flid' because she'd managed to get up from a table and upturn half a dozen coffees all over everyone. She had that nickname all through college, I called her it too. It was affectionately meant, she was clumsy. One day she asked us to stop, it was hard but we did, it was just a name to us and we associated it with her.

That sounds really shocking, I know it does. To make fun of the dreadful condition, 'Thalidomide'. :( Do you know though, not one time when I was calling my friend 'Flid', did I ever associate that with her. It was just a stupid name with a very real connotation and, had there been somebody in hearing with personal experience, I can imagine how it would have impacted. I hope that there was nobody in earshot.

It's all about the context... I took offence at a thread using the term 'Nazi' all the way through yesterday. It's not swearing but to me it's a very powerful word and it means something to me. The OP said it meant something to her too, but she didn't see what was wrong with the word. I hid the thread in the end, I'd said my bit and others came on after I'd said it to use the same word again and again.

Last week my little one came back from school chanting "Macca-Pacca-Spacca". Something to do with 'In The Night Garden', I think, but 'spacca' is not part of that, it's used to derride (again) clumsiness or perceived 'spastic' behaviour. It's not acceptable, it really isn't, but I agree with the posters further up the thread who say that it seems to be linked to the 'behaviour', not the person, pretty much in the same vein as the threads last week on the riots - the behaviour being 'scum' or the person?

I refer to 'special needs' children but I don't actually know what it's like to care for a special needs child, not really. I read the accounts from posters but I can't know the gamut of emotions involved and that's something that just doesn't come across in a post, as hard as I try to imagine. Many of the day-to-day terms actually mean something to the posters with special needs children but to me, not so much because I don't have their experiences but if I've been glib or dismissive then I really am sorry for that.

Different strokes for different folks... if it doesn't mean the same, it won't be treated the same. Somebody saying something in 'fun' can have an untold impact on somebody who has a completely different experience of the word and its meaning and I'm going to try to keep that in mind when my nose is an inch from the screen and I'm mentally grabbing my pitchfork.

GypsyMoth · 17/08/2011 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

TheseThingsAreGoodThings · 17/08/2011 11:47

so what about Looney Tunes?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looney_Tunes

Wiki says that "Looney" is a variant of "Silly"

Pagwatch · 17/08/2011 11:54
Smile

I can relate to all of that. All of it.
Context is important and when you hear a word and it has no personal impact upon you then what responsibility do you have for checking the antecedents of it or the potential offence it may cause? Well none I suspect.
I grew up with a paki shop around the corner. It took a shift in thinking to see how awful it was because that was what everyone used.
I think the term used about sn are harder to bear when it is not you but your child because we are so protective.
But I honestly am not offended by those who use language I would not because it does not occur to them that it has bad connotations. I never am.

I completely recognise that my experience is separate from mainstream and I would never expect the world to shape to me or my child. And what is acceptable shifts all the time. I had a fouled person sneer 'special needs' at ds2 so venom can be couched in any phrase. Special needs will be the next joke as retard gets less acceptable. And then the next and then the next.
I know that.

So there can't be banning. And I wouldn't want there to be. Language is fabulous and shifting as it should be.

But those who know that when they use retard they are using people with learning difficults as an insult - because to be accused of being retarded must be a foul thing, a joke, an insult, a word to demean and debase - and then shout 'pc gorn mad' as cover for being vile are annoying.

mayblossombitch · 17/08/2011 12:01

Language is constantly changing and what is considered acceptable today may not be in 10 years time.

People will always be offended by something - it seems that some people take great delight in looking for offence when none is meant, in an almost malicious way.

Pagwatch · 17/08/2011 12:05

If only there was a collection name for those looking to be offended..... what would that be I wonder....

2shoes · 17/08/2011 12:05

these threads are always the same, people saying they don't mean any harm when they use an offensive term, surely not hard to just accept that some words hurt, and use something else.
the dictionary is full of them.

as for the op on the other thread she was just trolling stirring, she has a child with sn but felt it was fine to use an offensive term to describe someone else. that is why imo she was jumped on.

2shoes · 17/08/2011 12:06

oh and mnhq do delete post with disablist terms in them now. it nm that allow them

VeronicaCake · 17/08/2011 12:10

I had a look at the other thread through my fingers but couldn't bring myself to comment and certainly couldn't comment on NetMums without making my brain hurt.

Here are my credentials: one seriously disabled sibling, 15 years of volunteering on holiday projects for children with learning disabilities, several years working as an advocacy worker for a national disability charity, currently an academic working in disability law. I also have epilepsy and have encountered a fair few charming people in the street shouting abuse at me after I've had a seizure.

There are cunts who perpetrate violent and prolonged hate crimes against disabled people. Sometimes this hatred escalates and we have tragedies like that of Fiona and Francecca Pilkington.

There is a low level, little-acknowledged stream of anti-disability hatred probably fuelled by fear that disabled people encounter every fucking day. A good friend of mine with cerebral palsy was once pushed out of HMV by a security guard saying he hated 'fucking crips' - no reason, the guy just grabbed his wheelchair and shoved him out. Mencap surveyed adults with learning disabilities and found that 9 out of 10 them had been bullied and they sure as hell knew about it. Experiencing taunting and assaults by strangers seem to be pretty much universal amongst the adults with learning disabilities I have known.

This situation is analogous to the low-level insidious racism that many people from minority ethnic groups describe. It is also similar to the hate crime gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people encounter. Racism has crept up the political agenda a bit, disability hate crime is creeping a little more slowly. In the meantime all these types of cruelty persist.

In addition to actively hateful acts disabled people face discrimination in employment and in access to goods and services, and in access to rights to participate in civil society that most of us take for granted.

There are also tens of millions of people in this country who are completely clueless about this. They know little about racism or disablist hate crime because it doesn't affect them. They probably think they are bad when they think about them. They don't know much about disability discrimination, but many of them assume that of course people with learning disabilities can't hold down jobs, or they wouldn't want to employ someone with depression in case they took loads of time off sick. They have picked up the cultural message that you can't say Mong or Spaz but assume that has something to do with playground abuse or the terms being out of date. They feel comfortable describing someone who does something stupid as 'special' or 'retarded' and do not make the connection. These people don't think of themselves as disablist, racist or in anyway nasty, but their tolerance of low level nastiness makes it easier for the full-on bigots to get away with their behaviour.

This kind of cluelessness happens because people don't think. Not necessarily because they don't care. And of course we still need insults because some people need to be insulted (or at least we need the catharsis of insulting them).

So here is the deal:

Group one insults are offensive because they compare the insulted individual to a social group with presumed undesirable attributes. If you insult someone by calling them a spaz you are implying that having muscle spasticity is somehow an undesirable attribute. This is crass and indicates that you probably don't know much about cerebral palsy. Terms that fall in this category include spaz, mong, retard, special, crip, flid, taking the sunshine bus and no doubt a hundred more. We should all know better than to use these terms.

Group two insults are terms which have altered in their use over the years so although they are etymologically similar to the first category very few people are aware of this. Most people don't know that idiot was once a technical term used to describe people with severe learning disabilities. Lunacy was a legal term for mental health needs right up until 1959. If you are thoughtful you probably want to avoid saying words like idiot, dumb, loon and cretin and you might want to point out their origins to people who use them.

Group three insults are terms which were initially offensive because they fell into group one but which have been reclaimed by the disparaged social group they apply to. Queer is a good example of this. The way in which some feminists have embraced twat and cunt is also a powerful way of subverting expectations. Young black people feel comfortable saying nigger. Many of my disabled friends feel happy referring to themselves as crips. A good way to check if these terms are OK is to first work out if they could be applied to you. And then use them sparingly for impact. Personally I am never happier than when saying cunt loudly.

Group four insults are the wide range of hugely inventive analogies people have introduced to get round the problem of wanting to personally insult an individual without insulting a wider social group. Thick as mince, thick as slurry, mad as cheese, boil on the arse of humanity, furry headed twatbadger, slimy pusillanimous todger bucket etcetc. These flurries of invective are lovely and rich and showcase the expressive loveliness of the English language. Go forth and multiply these.

Group five insults are the ones I can't comfortably fit in to the categories above. I think on the whole women should feel OK saying something is a pile of cock even if this does seem to disparage penises. Mad, crazy and dumb have all been technical terms. Mad and crazy have both been adopted by the mad pride movement so could arguable fit in group three. But mad and crazy are also widely used simply to refer to things which are incomprehensible e.g. 'the photocopier has gone crazy again' by people who are not by any means implying that the photocopier has a recognised mental disorder or that it would be a bad thing if it did. I think mad and crazy could fit in group 2 as well, but I don't feel exercised when I hear them in the way I feel exercised by the term 'special'. I'm happy to be educated on this one, especially by men who don't want to have their penises disparaged.

It isn't simple. There is no one rule that makes some terms OK and others now. You have to be thoughtful and listen when people explain that some terms upset them.

worraliberty · 17/08/2011 12:12

I use the word loon to mean 'whacky' 'crazy' and 'fun'

And if anyone's going to type me to death for using the word 'crazy'...fill your boots Hmm

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 17/08/2011 12:13

Pagwatch But those who know that when they use retard they are using people with learning difficults as an insult - because to be accused of being retarded must be a foul thing, a joke, an insult, a word to demean and debase - and then shout 'pc gorn mad' as cover for being vile are annoying.

Absolutely agree with that. I too had a 'paki shop' around the corner, it was just a descriptive name for the shop, distinguished it from the Spar. I loved the shop owners, and their children, we used to play together. The name just doesn't correlate with my feelings of the people involved. It's not a name I would ever use again though because for some people it brings forth very bad feelings and I don't want that.

LeninGrad · 17/08/2011 12:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

porcamiseria · 17/08/2011 12:18

veronica

I feel a bit guilty that you have taken the time to write sch a considered response on a silly thread

again, I am more disputing MN bully mentality than the use of such terms,sorry. I think everyone here is clear that these terms are shitty and vile

OP posts:
ClaireDeLoon · 17/08/2011 12:19

I always assumed the term was derived from the bird Loon too - we have them in UK btw they are just called Divers, so Great Northern Diver in the UK is the Common Loon in the States.

Anyway if it is offensive I'll change my username.

VeronicaCake · 17/08/2011 12:31

porca don't worry, sometimes I find it helpful to try and articulate something totally to work out what I really think (see the bit where I said 'academic'!).

I think what upset me about the Netmums thing is that whilst working out what may cause offence is hard being courteous actually isn't. You just have to listen and respond politely, rather than threatening to ban anyone who disagrees with you.

porcamiseria · 17/08/2011 12:39

I think you should clare !!!!! Grin

OP posts:
Mitmoo · 17/08/2011 12:49

For the record, the term was used because as I said in the post that I made, the woman was an idiot for asking me to move a perfectly parked but broken down car, and I was in a village at the time, hence village idiot in the literal sense of the usage of the words. It was not a reference to anyone with mental illness.

It was then hijacked and turned into something it wasn't.

I am sure if anyone else had said it, nothing would have been said at all. Thank you OP you are spot on the money again. Grin

GypsyMoth · 17/08/2011 12:54

She was an idiot for asking you to move it? It was a flat, you couldn't change it yourself so I guess there was more than one idiot in the village last night!

GypsyMoth · 17/08/2011 12:55

Sorry, I forgot the passive aggressive smiley!

Smile
Mitmoo · 17/08/2011 13:01

Sara I have had to come back and live in the real world, I used to live in the world of company cars followed by my own cars and AA/RAC membership where I didn't have to know how to get dirty. Still a lovely man helped and was a real pleasure to have met him.

In all honesty even if I knew how to do it I wouldn't have been able to get the nuts off with the wrench that I had, the bloke who helped me had to get his own one to do the job.

startail · 17/08/2011 13:06

Loon = great northern diver
Or eccentric person, person who is a bit loud and bouncy or person who holds firmly to ridiculous beliefs. All anti vaccination campaigners and all religious fanatics are loony

ExitPursuedByATroll · 17/08/2011 13:09

Loons always reminds me of 'On Golden Pond' as they were referred to many times. It took me half an hour to work out that Chelsea was the name of one of the characeters and not a reference to - um - Chelsea.

2shoes · 17/08/2011 13:15

"Driving home this evening son ASD/OCD, mum heart disease disabled, and the tyre goes as flat as a pancake. I was on a country road so I pull into a village and park up in a safe place. Village idiot (woman) says "your car smells like it is burning" "

Mitmoo that is the part of your post that you used the term in, so don't rty and wiggle out of it please.

Finallyspring · 17/08/2011 13:16

I think the point about this OP is that on the thread she is referring to, it seemed like people were using any excuse to pile in and criticise mitmoo because she has a history of complaining about people being horrible to her when they are just reacting quite normally to her selfishness.

Whatmeworry · 17/08/2011 13:33

VC, you forgot Group 6 :Words that mean one thing in common usage and have been defined as something esle by a sensitive special interest group of one sort or another, who then try and make everyone else use it (or not use it) their way.

I'd put Loon and Idiot in that category.

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