why is "village idiot" disablist, but "loon" not?

[porcamiseria]

sorry not picking on the poster that used the term "loon" but interesting that mitmoo got fucking CANED, and the other OP did not

smacks to me as an excuse for people to kick the living shit out of a poster that has annoyed them

you bullies! I dont agree with what mitmoo has posted . however I think this is more about bullying annoyance at a certain poster, using the PC excuse of disablist language

nuff said

Abraid- the thing is that ou wouldn't see 'cunt' written on medical records (as much as the HCP may want to), or other written documentations, so it still has the ability to shock. It was never used to describe someone in medical or social terms.

Apologies if this has already been said, but 'loon' does not come from the word 'lunatic' - it is means 'flighty' or 'silly' and is derived from the way the waterbird was perceived to act.

So not sure how it can be disablist

Team-if you read my link, the word is argued about. We have taken EU words and changed the spellings in the UK from times past, as language developed, so it had nothing to do with the bird.

I've thought about it a bit more and I'm thinking the difference is about time and choice. Being an idiot/bonkers/loon are all temporary labels potentially applicable to anyone. My husband currently thinks I'm bonkers for wanting a pink house. There is something fleeting about being told that and it's something I can do something about (if it bothered me). Being called retarded or village idiot has a permanent about it and wouldn't ever be used against most people.

I think the words lunatic and loon are totally different.

Most people think it does come from lunatic, though. Lunatic asylum - looneys - loon.

JUst because it doesn't officially come from lunatic doesn't really make any difference, if that is what people think.

Birds - haven't looked at your link but will do - have just googled and haven't found a definition online which doesn't link the meaning to the bird originally, so interesting that you say there is no connection...

My collins dictionary doesn't link it to the bird. The bird is a US/canada thing.

ANyway. This is all about individual impressions and understanding of words. You cannot make any rulings about what people think and say. You can just carry on trying to make clear what your own objections aare.

I don't think there's any kind of generic 'acceptance crtieria' for these descriptive names. It's all or nothing really. You (general) can't berate someone for using one name yet find another acceptable. I don't think it's about permanance either, a 'loon' can be just as fixed or fleeting as a 'village idiot'.

Either ban it all or just grit your teeth when a term comes up that you don't personally like. There's nothing else for it, within the 'rules', nobody has the right to tell anybody else what they can or can't say just because it might personally sting. That's what I think anyway...

OK: the online etymology dictionary offers this:

loon (2)
"crazy person," mid-15c., lowen "rascal," of uncertain origin, perhaps related to Du. loen "stupid person."

• still no mention of 'lunatic'.

But what are you trying to prove, damon?

I posted about this on the other thread but I have given it a bit more thought.

For me, the difference is context and usage. Language evolves over time and we use a lot of words that have origins that are very far removed from the meaning of the word these days. I freelanced as an etymologist for a revised dictionary while I was doing my postgrad and I was constantly surprised at where some common words came from. Where the current usage is very far removed from an underlying offensive term, most people won't make the connection when they hear the word, and therefore will not be offended.

Words like "mad" or "lunatic" are actually falling out of use (hopefully have fallen out of use already) for people with actual psychiatric illnesses or mental health problems. We now know that mental health is a complex issue and we don't trivialise it by using blanket terms such as "mad". Those terms have moved into much broader use. So while someone might say "my MIL is completely mad" and have that comment accepted for what it is - a general description of someone with odd and possibly annoying ideas and behaviour, if they were to say "oh she is mad" in response to someone enquiring about their MIL's well-known psychiatric problems they would almost certainly get a look in response.

However, terms like "retard" and other words for people with permanent learning disabilities, or conditions like Downs Syndrome, are unfortunately still in use. Not socially acceptable use, granted, but use nevertheless. Someone who married into my DP's family (you note I try to create a little distance there - not my relation!) casually referred to the members of a local sheltered accomodation type community as "retards" and I phsyically flinched which seemed to shock him into an apology. There is something about that type of words which is just nauseating and shocking.

Because there are several terms which are still used as insults for people with learing disabilities I think anyone using any marginal term really has to take on board the response that their use of such language evokes. I remember a poster fairly recently using a word which caused offence (can't recall which word - it might have been something like "spaz") and she was shocked and embarrassed when it was pointed out to her and she apologised and the apology was accepted. If someone uses a term which is badly received then it is entirely up to that person to decide whether to defend their position or accept the majority view and learn from it. How people respond will be greatly dependant upon the decision they make.

I read that thread last night and although didn't agree with the OP, I do agree that some posters were a little harsh on her, perhaps pent up annoyance from previous threads of hers? However I also found the way she replied a bit strange and seemed to keep going on about being anonymous on the internet. I have not read all her previous threads so not sure if she was referencing some point from one of them.
But I do not know why village idiot is disablist but loon is not.

I kind of agree lyingwitch but that position is a bit aggressive and combative.
Should it have to be ban it or suck it up?
Isn't it possible to talk about it as we are on here and encourage people to try and avoid words if they recognise that a chunk of the population find that upsetting or insulting.

I have used words in the past unthinkingly and stopped when I understood the effect they had.
I wouldn't ban anything.
And I think the 'you can't tell others what to say' posts are often from people who want the cover of 'it's pc gorn mad' to be foul.

It isn't about banning for me. It is just about kindness.

Team -lanuage develops, as you probably know and terminology and meaning is changed and adapted, comes into usage and is then connected.

No need for people to grit their teeth. They just need to keep on saying that they find the term offensive and say why, if that is the case.

In terms of the origin of "loon", it is entirely possible that it has evolved from the underlying word "lunar" by more than one route.

eg "lunatic" developed from the idea that the "lunar" phases affected mental health. The bird called a "loon" might have come about because it exhibited behaviour that people associated with madness or lunatics. Simultaneously people might have occasionally used "loon" as short-hand for "lunatic" or even to describe someone affected by the lunar phases.

Most words have a single origin but you do get etymologies that split and re-merge at a later stage.

Sorry. Linguistics geek!

I think you are right, and terms like "retard" and "spastic" are very, well nasty no. and thats why nice people dont use these terms

I suppose that villiage idiot for me is not really an offensive term, and if it is for some, well fair play, but I would imagine that for most people retard = nasty, villiage idiot=less so. I see it as a term for stupidity, not illness

so I dont get why another OP got lambasted for it , landed to me like she is an unpopular poster and a suspected troll and it was almost like people thought, hey everyone hates this suspected troll, I can shout at her! I can vent my frustrations at her and its OK becuase everyone else is going it!

I was ride to her on another thread and I felt really shitty about it. I would not talk to people like that in real life, what makes me think that cos its the internet its OK? I was not poud of myself

I am prepared to be educated but when I use 'crazy' 'mad' I referring to behaviour not the mental health of an individual.

Village idiot, I hadn't realised was offensive as I hadn't equated it with MH issues I just thought about it being a general bigot/busy body etc.

Am I safe to use the word 'village'?

Totally agree with Pag and Pointydog. I wouldn't want to see any words actively banned with one of those twee little swear-filters for example. I would rather that people used a word on here that they might use in real life, possibly in all innocence, and were then challenged on their views and hopefully educated or forced to re-think a particular viewpoint.

Everyone will have a different view of what is or is not acceptable. By challenging and discussing these views, hopefully a broad consensus evolves and the really nasty stuff falls out of common usage.

What exactly is wrong with small town Exit?
Or large Hamlet?

Porcamiseria: "so I dont get why another OP got lambasted for it , landed to me like she is an unpopular poster and a suspected troll and it was almost like people thought, hey everyone hates this suspected troll, I can shout at her! I can vent my frustrations at her and its OK becuase everyone else is going it!"

You see I don't think that was what was happening at all, not for the majority of posters anyway. I think the OP simply made, and is still making, very bad decisions as to how to respond to the consensus that she had used an inappropriate phrase to describe someone. The bulk of the criticism could have been deflected by more measured responses. Unfortunately the OP chose to take a very agressive stance indeed and clearly is not prepared to concede any mistake or wrong-doing on her part so people continue to challenge her.

You are probably right that people had her previous posts in mind - in fact some people mentioned them specifically. I think this is understandable when someone has made themselves quite high-profile for a particular type of thread, and always responds agressively to criticism. People get fed-up. I don't think may people do genuinely think that she is a troll - but I do think that people think she needs challenging on her attitudes.

Didn't "retard" come from the attempting-to-be-a-bit-more-PC/less-unpleasant phrase "retarded development"? (With the attendant hope that one's child would eventually "catch up")

And "spastic" describes a movement, not a person.

The problem is that whatever word we use for people with disabilities ("Mongol" used to be used for people with Down's Syndrome, because their eyes are often shaped like those of people from Mongolia) it will be adopted by some deeply unpleasant people as an insult.

Sorry, slightly incoherent.