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Original poster

why is "village idiot" disablist, but "loon" not?

214 replies

porcamiseria · 17/08/2011 09:22

sorry not picking on the poster that used the term "loon" but interesting that mitmoo got fucking CANED, and the other OP did not

smacks to me as an excuse for people to kick the living shit out of a poster that has annoyed them

you bullies! I dont agree with what mitmoo has posted . however I think this is more about bullying annoyance at a certain poster, using the PC excuse of disablist language

nuff said

OP posts:
SoupDragon · 17/08/2011 13:43

I always think of loon as an affectionate term for being silly.

SoupDragon · 17/08/2011 13:44

By which I mean I cant see it really being used as an insult.

Thumbwitch · 17/08/2011 14:02

Idiot = person with severe mental deficiencies (mental age

VeronicaCake · 17/08/2011 14:15

Whatmeworry surely that means loon and idiot are in group 5 - the debatables. I agree with you on loon since it seems to have been in use as a term meaning 'worthless person, rogue, scamp, sluggard, idler' since around 1450 and is of uncertain etymology. Loony, however, certainly does derive from lunatic so you can see why people assume a connection between the two terms.

Idiot and lunatic have both been legal terms for people who have either got severe learning disabilities ('congenitally deprived of reason') or acute mental health problems ('have lost use of their reason') well within living memory. There are plenty of people alive who will have had these terms used to describe them when they were admitted to long stay hospitals. I agree that they both also have a wider colloquial meaning than these specific medical and legal meanings, but older adults with learning disabilities do record feeling offended by seeing paperwork describing them as idiots, cretins or morons.

It doesn't restrict our use of language massively to be sensitive about using these terms.

Whatmeworry · 17/08/2011 14:26

VC sorry I must have mis-interepeted your case 5, i was more thinking of wiorsd where a "forced" semantic shift is occurring, driven by some form of lobby.

I'm fascinated by the whole dynamic of semantic shift, ever since we had to look at it at Uni (cough) years ago, how words change through the ages, and how it works. Especially interlaced with slang. The history of "Gay" is fascinating in that context btw.

I think Loon is straightforward as you say, Idiot probably less so - it has residual echoes among some older people, but "don't be an idiot", "he was being a total idiot" etc are fairly common in the vernacular today.

Pendeen · 17/08/2011 16:13

breatheslowly

I think we may need a list of acceptable and unacceptable terms. Is "idiot" ok but "village idiot" not ok or are they both disablist?

And who would draw up such a list. What would be their criteria and credentials for deciding what is or is not 'offensive'?

And who, in their right mind, would take any notice of such a document?

I made a light-hearted comment about George Orwell on another thread but reading some of today's subjects and the stuffy, self-opinionated and just plain daft comments I am beginning to wonder if my observation is now about the sureal linguistic reality of C21.

Newspeak is indeed here.

breatheslowly · 17/08/2011 17:02

Pendeen - I wasn't being entirely serious. there aren't clear boundaries and I still have no idea whether those who find the term "village idiot" offensive would also object to "idiot". I actually think that the status quo is about right - that some terms are so offensive that they really can't be used and the ones that are on the boundary are challenge.

2shoes · 17/08/2011 17:06

i never realised that idiot, moron and cretin were bad words, until it was mentioned on here, never use cretin anyway, but do try and not use the others now. as an i am an old lady and can manage it, I am sure others can.

shakey1500 · 17/08/2011 19:50

Just an anecdote along the lines of this thread, not constructive at all but it sprang to mind.

I had a very severe mental health breakdown a few years ago which resulted in being admitted, voluntarily, to a psychiatric unit. Upon my return to work (my direct employers were fantastic throughout the whole episode. Not relevant to the story but credit where credit's due etc). To "ease" me back into work I was sent on a refresher training course.

The trainer was delivering the Health and Safety module and reached the section regarding the effects of stress in the workplace. He said (verbatim)...

"It is important to watch your stress levels as, this can lead to serious health problems which, if left untreated...could..you know....see you ending up in the mad house with all the nut nuts (chortle chortle)"

I absolutely froze with horror....then felt tears well up....tried to compose myself...failed....and left the room. Once I'd gathered myself I was INCANDESCENT. I waited for him outside and told him exactly what thought. how utterly disgusted I was. I had come a bloody long way and with one fell swoop he made me feel...well..I just can't find a word :(

breatheslowly · 17/08/2011 19:56

Shakey - I'm really sorry to hear that happened to you, but really impressed that you were able to "educate" him. In any room full of people there will be people who have personal experience of mental health issues, whether their own or friends or family. What he said was not only unbelievably insensitive, but actually just stupid too given the likelihood of offending someone.

MrsCampbellBlack · 17/08/2011 20:13

Its interesting how language evolves. For me 'loon' is a silly affectionate term but saying that I wouldn't use it on here so on some level must think its a bit dodgy.

But then other things do perplex me. I once commented on my ds having a meltdown over something or other and meant a big tantrum - very big but was absolutely attacked by one poster for using a term which she said was only allowed to be used with reference to autistic children/adults.

Now I seriously had no idea that the word meltdown had only that meaning to some people - to me it was more to do with nuclear reactors. But anyway as the word had clearly offended her - I wouldn't use it again in that context because I am generally a pretty kind person.

That poster was a rude cow though Wink

And I agree with porca that I too hate the piling in thing that sometimes happens on here - even if the OP is clearly delusional its just a bit distasteful.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 17/08/2011 20:21

I agree that the most important thing is to take into account how others feel and self-censor accordingly.

I think with idiot, because the root meaning is someone who is unable or utterly unwilling to be part of society at a time when that wouldn't have been recognized as mental illness, I think it's a useful term to have. It's how most people use it colloquially - to describe someone who does something antisocial as well as silly ('that idiot pulled out right in front of me', 'that idiot didn't feed the cat'). I've not heard 'idiot' used to tease children who've got learning disabilities, but that would make me change my usage.

honeymom · 17/08/2011 20:26

I think people take things to heart far too easily. And we have gone too politicly correct. It's crazy. As long as your not calling someone something in a bullying way then why get worked up about it.

shakey1500 · 17/08/2011 20:29

honeymom because some terms are offensive

honeymom · 17/08/2011 20:31

Yes some terms are. But seriously. Village idiot. Is not

ninnymcphee · 17/08/2011 20:36

How bad can 'Loon' be when its the name of a character on Humf????
Or do I just watch too much Nick Jnr?

Whatmeworry · 17/08/2011 20:43

Maybe there needs to be some form of "Offensiveness Test" or index in that to be Truly Offensive a word must (say):

  • be less common in the vernacular than for the special interest group in question

AND

  • be well used as an insult by opponents of that group

OR

  • have originated within that group before its use in the vernacular.
ledkr · 17/08/2011 21:06

I say many jokey insults in everyday life but i dont know the real meaning anymore than if i call my mate a cunt mucking about i really mean she is a vagina or if i call dh a dick head i dont really mean he has a penis growing from his head.
Then again i was told off for saying hare lip and i have achild with a cleft palate-i really didnt know.

Signet2012 · 17/08/2011 22:20

Can I please just share this link.... this man speaks a lot of sense

its about taking offence and such..... :)

Thumbwitch · 18/08/2011 01:36

why were you told off for saying "hare lip", ledkr? Confused

I disagreed with that posted who said that "meltdown" referred exclusively to children with ASD - it's a word that is used to refer to the nature of their tantrum but is in no way exclusive. However, I don't use it on boards here any more because some people do believe that it should only refer to children with ASD.

Mitmoo · 18/08/2011 06:43

Thumbswitch *Idiot = person with severe mental deficiencies (mental age

Pagwatch · 18/08/2011 07:29

MrsCampbellBlack/ Thumbwitch

My son has asd. He has meltdowns. But the notion that the term is only, and should only be used re asd is ridiculous to me.
That may be a view expressed on here but I have never met anyone else having a problem with it.

Pagwatch · 18/08/2011 07:32

Errr - does it matter if Thumbwitches list is definitively sourced? It is broadly accurate isn't it?
I don't get the point?
Or am I missing a point scoring thing?

ledkr · 18/08/2011 07:33

thumbwitch apparently not acceptable as it compares to the lip of a hare-ie big rabbit type hare iyswim?
I often use meltdown-to describe my own behaviour when it all becomes a bit much and i cry and strop off to my room Grin i had no idea it could be insulting.

gillybean2 · 18/08/2011 07:45

Not read most of the thread but my immediate thought when I hear the word 'loon' is that it means funny/silly. It makes me think of "loony tunes" - the silly cartoon characters.

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