Fed up with boys in women's changing rooms at pool

[Clary]

Not really AIBU, more may I rant please?

Actually wrote longer post then seem to have lost it, but wanted to moan about number of big lads I have spotted lately in women's changing rooms at pool. Rule is 8yo and over go in correct sex room.

I tend to say nothing having been verbally attacked before, and also told I W A bit U; but today I did query it with a woman and was told such nonsense as "they won't let them go in the men's as they are too young" (they were 9 and 10) and "nobody uses the men's anyway" (??!!).

Told the staff and they said they would tell the women when she came out; but really, why do people think their 10yo boy must change in the women's? What 10yo boywants to anyway? I am not mad about him standing there as I get changed and if I were a 14yo girl I would probably be very unhappy.

The woman today said "well, all the mums will be washing their kids after the swim" eh?? My 8yo can be a bit hopeless but even he can manage a reasonable shower and dress deal. What is the matter with people?

And breathe. Vent over, thanks for listening

Saintly when we were talking about communal changing areas you said this:

"Well I frequently get changed with 55 year old learning disabled men and women tripping round the place without passing out. My children manage as well. Incidentally Tom Daley does too. Sleb endorsement."

And then this:

"Well personally I think my son should be allowed to be a changing room at any age especially as he has zero interest in female bodies. But I don't take him in any more (aged 12)."

Which most people on the thread took to mean what you said ie that you have no problem changing in front of adults of the opposite sex who are disabled (although you keep talking about learning disabilities I assume you mean people with physical disabilities as well) and that you thought your son should have that right too whatever his age.

On your suggestion: "they could intoduce the (less than ideal) solution my pool has and have specialist disabled sessions with mixed changing. "

Now I have REPEATEDLY suggested that a solution would be to open the changing rooms up for mixed changing at all times except dedicated single sex swimming times. This would give your family more swimming time than people who do not want to get changed with people of the opposite sex but you (as far as I can see) have not responded to that suggestion, instead repeating it yourself just now as if it's the first time it's been suggested.

I mean those comments that you made way upthread are clearly not talking about cubicles as no-one would be changing with other people "tripping around" and it would be irrelevant whether people have interest in other people's bodies or not, as people would be in cubicles.

I mean I find it tiresome that you keep changing what you are saying to make out that others are not being understanding of your circumstances, when people are going out of their way to give you options which mean that you get more swimming time than most others.

I don't get why you are taking this line.

I think everyone understands why you have to take your son into the changing room Loudlass what is at question is why the council doesn't provide changing facilities for people who require help.

Um I don't mean people with physical disabilities actually, unless they need a carer. Many don't, unless they have LD's as well. Those with physical disabilities, but no learning disabilities who need help changing often need other very specialist equipment so their needs are slightly different and more complex than DS1's. I'm pleased to say our new pool is being built with 'changing places' equipment and so people with complex physical disabilities will be able to access the pool area with a carer of any sex. Good news indeed and I think all new council pools are being built with these areas.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough Sardine. I was responding to the suggestion that all children would be wanting to look at tits and pointing out that so far that wouldn't happen with ds1. Of course it might one day and of course were that to happen I would be as keen as anyone else to ensure he was not in a position where he was vulnerable. I was thinking about my pool where there are multiple cubicles and a path to the pool which doesn't involve wandering through an area with nekkid ladies - there I don't really see the huge problem with my son changing there at any age because unless someone is wandering around in the buff he isn't going to see anything other than people who are covered. Of course I'm not going to strip him off in front of a bunch of women. He wouldn't notice them or care that he was naked, but he's vulnerable and it's my duty to protect him. For the same reason I make him get dressed when he stands naked at our front windows.

I did actually say a long way up thread that having mixed and single sex changing times would be a potential solution. (just more than 90 minutes mixed please - but was told we should be grateful for that)

Loudlass summarises the issue really - that often these things are often about a bit of understanding. There's one totally mainstream activity that ds1 accesses with no major crisis each time. He's given a 1:1 and it works brilliantly - because the business providing the activity are understanding. That's it. Nothing more. He should be able to access many other activities but they don't work because people are not willing to be understanding or remotely flexible. The Code of Practice talks a lot about staff training and in the case of LD's people taking time to understand the issues and think of different ways of providing a service is often all that's required. (One example being exit passes at theme parks, we've never been to one so never had the opportunity to try them out, but sounds like exactly the sort of solution that would make an inaccessible park accessible).

We mixed changing cubicles here, no area for gender just open showers and about 50 cubicles.

When I was younger about 6/7 (early 90's) I used to go into the changing area at my dads football clib to wait for him, nobody thought anything of it so I don't see why it would be different with a boy nowadays.

Children don't see the world like us, not everything is sexualised. I would'nt have an issue with it up to 11.

Sardine people are 'tripping around' because some people are showered and then their carer moves them to a cubicle. So you see a bit of flesh if you really want to look for it while passing in the corridor, especially with 2 people in the shower cubicle. Far more than you would with a person without learning disabilities (who tend to have a better understanding of how to be private).

I've totally lost track of your argument anyway. I am arguing that it's disgraceful that people needing mixed changing rooms are limited to 90 minutes swim a week. That's it. Nothing more. I am not arguing that there should be a mass naked sit in by people with learning disabilities just to upset the general public. Just more access to the pool please.

Which will happen for us next year, and hopefully for others equally as quickly.

"We mixed changing cubicles here, no area for gender just open showers and about 50 cubicles"

Yes that's the answer - absolutely. And presumably in 10 - 20 years time those will be standard and another mumsent staple will no longer exist. I wonder whether by then people will have worked out that they don't need P&T parking quite as much as a person with disabilities needs disabled parking? What will we all argue about?

Saintly if specialist times were proposed with mixed changing provided they were such as still to be reasonable - I could live with it. Not weekends which are the busiest times.

But only if there is the demand whch so far there has not been. There are restrictions - imposed under planning permission, and I won't go into detail - on membership which make it in practice unlikely.

But I have always understand that what I hope I may call the disability lobby prefers integrated access, not separate hours? Perhaps that is why you call what you suggest less than ideal.

Yes, I know how powerful the Act is, but it is not correct that "can't afford it" is never a defence. It is always a question of degree, even where equipment is not required.

The point I have made throughout this interesting thread is (1) that this is an issue which concerns men as well as women and that (2) where cubicles are not possible, privacy is trumps.

" I was responding to the suggestion that all children would be wanting to look at tits "

Who said that? I don't remember anyone saying that.

I can also think of an awful lot of situations where people with physical disabilities or mobility problems might need a hand getting changed but not need lots of specialist equipment - so I am not sure why you are separating out different types of disability and saying there is a need for something for one but you don't think people with physical disabilities or mobility difficulties face these issues in the same way. Do you think that people with learning difficulties are more worthy of concern that people with physical difficulties? Your post comes across that way and I don't like it TBH.

If we're going to talk about access for people with disabilities then that needs to be the whole group not just one.

As for your last, saintly, don't you worry, MNers of any age and either gender and whether parents or not will find always something to argue about! :)

We were also not talking about children we were talking about people from older children and adults.

"Um I don't mean people with physical disabilities actually, unless they need a carer. Many don't, unless they have LD's as well. Those with physical disabilities, but no learning disabilities who need help changing often need other very specialist equipment so their needs are slightly different and more complex than DS1's."

I mean, seriously? You have considered all of the different situations there are and have concluded that actually most people with these problems are fine changing by themselves and the ones who aren't need such a lot of special stuff that they don't need thinking about.

In the context of this thread I find that attitude a bit mind-boggling and frankly rather upsetting. You maybe just haven't thought about it properly.

I used to take a woman who was in a wheelchair after a stroke, swimming every week. Her arms were badly affected, so she couldn't get changed without help. As we were both female, this presented no problems. But I would have thought that her level of physical disability is not unusual.

I think I'm going to have to bow out of this now. It seems all the way through that there is a certain approach of I want what I want and that's all I'm interested in.

The dismissal of concerns of people who don't want to change in communal facilities with older children and adults of the opposite sex
The accusations of not being understanding enough even when suggestions and solutions which give much greater access to people with disabilities are put forward time and time again
The fact that it turns out the only people who are being thought about are people with learning disabilities, people with physical disabilities aren't even being included in the conversation apparently

It's just pointless isn't it. I get that everyone wants the best for their families and everyone on the thread agrees that improved access for all is the best - these changing villages seem very good. Yet still this insistence that people are somehow trying to do others down even when the posts say otherwise. I give up.

xposts lesley well quite.

I can think immediately of a vast number of situations where people would need assistance changing but not lots of specialist equipment.

This dismissal of people with physical difficulties from the conversation is really upsetting and surprising.

Sardine do you read what I say and purposely assume I mean the opposite? Of course I don't mean that it doesn't need thinking about. If I thought that I wouldn't have mentioned Changing Places. That was shorthand for saying that if my arguments were about that group as well then Andrew would be on my back saying the cost of providing hoists and changing tables would be too onerous for businesses and would not fall under 'reasonable adjustments' (unfortunately he's probably right - of course I would LOVE to make it a requirement for every public space to have to install such facilities - funded by the govt in the case of SME's - equal access for all - but that is not where it's at at the moment). I was also trying to avoid patronising those with PD's by assuming they would need help changing.

As pagwatch said pages back - at the moment it is OUR CHILDREN who are missing out, not anyone else's and not the female population or the male population. That's sort of why I've argued about the need to improve accessibility.

Have a read of the Leeds article I posted earlier. That makes the point that a lot of spaces think about disability in physical terms, so unless someone's physical disability is very complex that group is the group most likely to be catered for. Clearly if someone's physical disability can be adjusted for simply by providing access to a mixed changing room then my arguments above are for them as well. If they need specialist equipment then the arguments are different (and naturally I would whole heartedly support them). Many with physical disabilities would of course feel patronised by the assumption that they're not able to change themselves and in most sports businesses etc do understand access needs (such as ramps, handrails if nothing else) for those with physical disabilities. Of course if anyone was having problems accessing a swimming pool due to PD's I would support them. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

"Can't afford it" is only a defence if you show you have considered all options and the cost would be too great. See my post about Changing Places.

We are talking about childen because we're talking about 8+

Lesley see my first line where I said 'Um I wasn't talking about people with PD's actually unless they need a carer'. The unless they need a carer bit refers to the sort of situation you describe?

Anyway just time to point people in the direction of the very important Changing Places campaign.

www.changing-places.org/the_campaign/what_are_changing_places_toilets_.aspx

I am very aware that whilst we have enough access issues the children at DS1's school with profound and multiple learning disabilities have many more. Suitable toilet facilities reduce isolation and allow better access to the community for that group. A very worthy cause.

There are loads of people who are "missing out" who are not your children. What an odd thing to say. The difference is that you give priority (quite naturally) to the concerns that affect your family and loved ones and in doing so are in danger of falling into the same trap as you repeatedly accuse others on this thread of. ie only thinking about your own situation and forgetting that there are others in different situations who also have needs.

People have mentioned groups like elderly people, embarrassed developing teens, people with physical difficulties that mean they need help changing but you don't respond to them. Its all about your children and no-one else. Can you see the irony of that? If you don't care about all these other groups as they are not your children then how can you expect others to care about your child?

But they do, everyone on this thread does.

I mean your post.

"Many with physical disabilities would of course feel patronised by the assumption that they're not able to change themselves "

Where have I said that? I am a physically disabled person who does not need help changing, I have been friends with people with a range of physical disabilities including people affected by thalidomide who had quite compromised limbs and were wholly independent. And yet you make this huge not very subtle hint that I am being patronising and assuming all people with physical disabilities need help. You have heard of things like arthritis, joint problems, stroke and all the rest of it? And yet for you apparently physical disability means wheelchairs and ramps.

I think you need to practice what you preach and give a little more care when talking about groups that you clearly have little understanding of.

Don't agree with this at all my 5 year old is disabled and I need my 11 year olds sons help with her wheelchair she is too heavy for just me to lift and would not be able to go swimming.

My oh very seldom takes our ds because of attauides like the op because when she needs to go loo he has to take her to the ladies as the disabled loos are always full with someone with a pram gurrrr
And the mens loos the men have their willies out

Very sad

I think more family changing should be built