Fed up with boys in women's changing rooms at pool

[Clary]

Not really AIBU, more may I rant please?

Actually wrote longer post then seem to have lost it, but wanted to moan about number of big lads I have spotted lately in women's changing rooms at pool. Rule is 8yo and over go in correct sex room.

I tend to say nothing having been verbally attacked before, and also told I W A bit U; but today I did query it with a woman and was told such nonsense as "they won't let them go in the men's as they are too young" (they were 9 and 10) and "nobody uses the men's anyway" (??!!).

Told the staff and they said they would tell the women when she came out; but really, why do people think their 10yo boy must change in the women's? What 10yo boywants to anyway? I am not mad about him standing there as I get changed and if I were a 14yo girl I would probably be very unhappy.

The woman today said "well, all the mums will be washing their kids after the swim" eh?? My 8yo can be a bit hopeless but even he can manage a reasonable shower and dress deal. What is the matter with people?

And breathe. Vent over, thanks for listening

What was that stuff about it not being anything to write home about being a bit disabled, and not being able to do activities that I probably wouldn't bother to do anyway?

Sardine I was objecting to you assuming that as someone who is mildly disabled (your terms not mine) has the same problem accessing the community (not activities - I mean the world outside the house) as someone who is severely disabled. If I worried about other people's opinions I woukdn't step out of the house and ds1 would be inside the whole time. Someone complains about him literally every time we step outside the house - and he's never allowed to damage anything. People complain about ds1 in car parks fgs (he looks at their cars) - and I honestly couldn't care less. We don't go to the cinema or places to eat or most things that have a queue etc etc because we don't particularly want to cause other people to have to stare. I get sent the activities organised for disabled kids in the area each month - he cannot access any of them- not a single one - and these are 15 pages long. So my point was not that you should shove off, more that given that's one of the few places in the community we can access I believe a solution should be found to allow more acces to the pool and I believe it is wrong that nothing is done about that.

I really can't be bothered to go through 20 pages to find out where this thread has got to (something about NT vs. people with disabilities? Nice.) but YANBU.

At the gym I go to that has children's pool sessions, the age limit for boys in the women's changing rooms is 8. That's fine by me but any older than that I would feel very uncomfortable. It's not a question of boys 'becoming perverts' when they are over 8, it's a question of me being uncomfortable about exposing private parts of my body to members of the opposite sex. Believe it or not, not all men are perverts who would stand there goggling me either but I sure as heck wouldn't be getting changed infront of them. The line has to be drawn and I think 8 is good.

I do think that swimming pools and other facilities with changing rooms should have areas where people who do need help to get changed by a member of the opposite sex can get washed and dressed in a situation that preserves both their and others' dignity. Whether than means unisex cubicle-only changing rooms or a third changing room with cubicles doens't really matter.

I'd also liek to say that from the last page that I read of this thread (something like 19, I read the first and last) the people pn both sides are eign really childish and taking the issue to extremes. Who really wants a child with a disability to miss out on swimming? No sane, kind person. Who really wants girls and women to feel so uncomfrotable being forced to change infront of older boys and men that they don't go swimming? No sane, kidn person. Grow up, seriously!

Paggy, can I gently suggest you turn off MN & have a large glass of wine? I can feel you're upset and a breather would be a good thing x

"Sardine I was objecting to you assuming that as someone who is mildly disabled (your terms not mine) has the same problem accessing the community (not activities - I mean the world outside the house) as someone who is severely disabled. "

I never said this. I said this:

"I don't know with this stuff everyone always naturally has their own experiences and families that they are looking out for.

I for example am a bit disabled, but not disabled enough to join in with activities specifically for people with disabilities.

As a result there is very little I can do in the way of activities apart from swimming and walking (and I consider myself lucky to be able to do those). But I love dancing and music, and most of my friends do / have done all sorts of dancing things in the evening or aerobics with music at the gym or even yoga and stuff. All of that is closed to me and it feels like a shame. I sometimes think maybe I should start something but I don't have the time and where would you start?

But I wouldn't say that other people's things should be changed to accomodate me, changing in such a way that lots of people wouldn't be able to do them to accomodate one of me.

I get why people say these things, really I do, but at the same time I think that things can be arranged so that everyone has a better chance, not this adversarial "women and girls if you don't like it then don't bother going" when it's the female changing rooms IYSWIM."

and in response which you directed in response you made your point about people who are only a bit disabled not really having much of a problem, and they wouldn't bother doing the stuff anyway.

Read what I wrote and then read what you wrote in response. It was quite pointed.

In that post that I wrote, what is wrong with it? Can people tell me what is wrong with that post that I pasted there ^ ? Because I have read it and read it and I honestly can't see what's wrong with it.

I also have not used the term "mildly disabled". It doesn't sound like something I would say and I've just checked and I haven't said it. Why are you quoting things at me that I have not said?

DS1 is 6, the thought of him having to go in a separate changing room in a few years fills me with dread. Same with toilets. Too many weirdos about. I know I'll have to let him at some point. Maybe at 18?

Hmmm 5 pages.... Have no idea where you lot go swimming but don't swimming pools have female and male changing rooms with disabled facilities within each? Even the victorian pool near me has disabled facilities as I imagine it is part of equal access for all regulations.

As for 9, 10, 11 year old boys without disabilities in female Changing rooms... Why on earth would they be in there?

There is absolutely no reason for it at all...

Just as there is no reason for my 8 year old DD to change in the men's room with her dad when they go together. He goes in the men's and she goes in the women's.

joric- yes within each which is problematic unless you have a same sex carer.

I am not purposely misquoting you I just can't be arsed to read back Sardine. My understanding of what you said was that you were a bit disabled so you missed out on lots of activities but you didn't particularly mind. If that was incorrect then my response makes no sense.

My son would like to have a go at golf (the mind boggles frankly). At least I assume he does, every time we drive past a gold course he starts shouting and pointing to himself. It's a pretty good sign. There is no physical reason for him not to have a go at hitting the ball (I doubt he'll quite get the concept but anyhow) but attitudes in golf clubs may make it difficult for him to even try. It's the same with the swimming really - a simple attitude shift could make it very easy to meet everyone's needs, but that won't happen (and give a new pool opens next year I CBA to do anything about it

We dont have disabled facilities at our pool. Ds1 (10) has been going into the mens since he was 8. Ds2, who is 16 months younger but has severe autism, comes in with me - I cant imagine that he'll ever be able to go in on his own, as much because of his vulnerability as his self help skills. At the moment I make sure we go into a cubicle and I never let him stand naked in the open part of the changing rooms, just out of respect really. Goodness knows what I'll do when we dont fit into the cubicle any more. Have never had any disapproving looks, but he still looks fairly young for his age.

joric the problem is exactly those sort of facilities - separate disabled cubicles within the male and female changing areas. Mum and PFBDS DS still can't stay together easily without upsetting girls/women in the main changing area.

If you're happy for your DS to change in the ladies at 10 are you going to be ok with your DD having to change with the boys in her class at that age? Bear in mind that even if the boys haven't hit puberty yet, the girls (on average) have begun it. OK we grown women may be a hardy lot, but what about a shy 10 year old girl who's already getting teased for being different because she's in a bra already? or because she's not?

There's no excuse given for the obnoxious, uncontrolled preteen boys in the ladies at my gym though - they run riot while mummy dries her hair, has a chat etc and there is a separate facility for families! That's really the situation this thread started about anyway, but there's a lot of people pretending it was about disability bashing.

There will always be leeway given to SN children, but it's the "but he can't go in the men's it's bound to be full of paedos and poor little Tarquin (aged 15) couldn't possibly put his socks on by himself" brigade that are a different issue and BVU imo (esp if rules are posted around the place or part of the joining pack if a private gym) Again, an ungendered family area would deal with the issue if they could be bothered to use it but (in my experience) few do.

A line has to be drawn somewhere, of course a SN adult would still have to use the disabled or own gendered facilities. I agree with the policy at my gym that 7 seems about right.

COI: Dad taught me to swim. I can't remember exactly how old I was when I went to the ladies on my own, but I was definitely less than 6.5 as we moved house at that point and I never went in the gents at the second pool. I'd say that's about right really.

(At nearly 33 I went swimming this evening and didn't turn my socks or top the right way out - the sky didn't fall in. I didn't dry my hair either - DM would be so proud )

Saintly - joric- yes within each which is problematic unless you have a same sex carer.
A disabled boy ( for example ) with a female carer using disabled facilities in a female changing room ( or vice versa) - don't see a problem with that.

No disabled facilities sphil? Anyone know what legislation is in place? Surely this is not ok?

Again, boys of 9+ in female changing with their mummies.. WTF?!!

Again, boys of 9+ without disabilities in female changing with their mummies.. WTF?!!

OP wasn't talking about disabilities. There is no excuse for a 9yr old DS without disabilities to be in a female changing room-full stop.

If the disabled facilities are in the women's changing rooms then you should be able to pop your head round the door and say I have a son who needs to use the disabled facility's am I ok to bring him through,

Anyone who has a problem with a child with sn walking through the changing room to use a cubical should go and change in a toilet

i have 2 brothers and when we went swimming if my dad wasn't there or my eldest brother wasn't there my other brother use to have to come with us into changing rooms/toilets ect and id say he was 9 or so for me to remember, he had co ordination problems and couldn't find his way out of a room with 1 door struggled with his buttons and laces but i guess to people looking in he just looked like he was being molly coddled getting his shoes tied at that age, it never mattered to me though, i use to have getting dressed wrapped up in a towel down to a fine art.

just slightly different but what age do you let your sons use the mens toilet alone??

heh heh moomin that would be far too simple! I agree - it's exactly that what I meant above when I said it should be relatively simple to come to a solution that is fine for all, but at the moment we're not allowed to do that. There are some issues with that for us (such as the waiting issue if they're in use) but it's really about being discreet and certainly in my pool there are lots of places to be discreet. We're just not allowed near them

A lot of the activities ds1 can't access (which is pretty much everything) are about other people's attitudes. Sometime there's an issue with his disability (for example he couldn't play football as he has no concept of the game, wouldn't understand the rules etc etc) but other activities are hard to access simply because people don't change the way they think or do things at a very simple level or make very small adjustments. Communication should be the key to acceptable solutions for all, but unfortunately in the real world there's often someone who gets the hum or finds a problem so you end up with lots of rules that cannot be bent and ultimately it's the most vulnerable/marginalised that lose access.

salad I send ds2 (9) into the mens toilets alone. DS3 (6) goes into the mens toilets with ds2. Ds1 (12) uses the disabled as first choice, ladies as second. I have just started to occasionally send him into the mens with ds2, although that is slightly risky (if he kicks off ds2 can't deal with it, I have to go in and drag him out).

I'd have thought boys over the age of 8 or so would be absolutely mortified and paralysed by embarrassment to be made to change in the womens' changing room. The boys I went to school with certainly would have been! How the world has changed...

My Dad taught me to swim in a university pool (where there were obviously no family facilities) because he taught there and could get us in for free at certain times (we weren't very well off and couldn't afford it otherwise.) The first time we went, because I didn't know my way around, I had to change in the men's changing room with my Dad. I hated it. I was 7 at the time, and even at that age I was so embarrassed I didn't know where to look. After that I insisted on going in the women's changing room on my own. I couldn't even reach the lockers or the on button for the hairdryer but it was better than all the yukky body parts swinging around in the mens!

I don't object to boys in the ladies room if they need to be there. But at 9 or 10 years old with no disability there is no excuse for them being unable to follow instructions and get themselves dried, dressed and out in a reasonable time. And they can do that in their own changing room.

Saintly I understand for some with sn it would be a problem ( waiting etc) for others it would be a good compromise

I wouldn't have a problem with an older child with sn using the women's changing room. After all I can always wait till he's left to get undressed.

As for special times for sn using the pool, this doesn't always work, it would be dependant on how the child is on the day, even so unless it's the better option for the individual why should they have set times? We should be living in a world that integrates people with sn into society, not making it difficult for them to access facilities

Moomins As for special times for sn using the pool, this doesn't always work, it would be dependant on how the child is on the day, even so unless it's the better option for the individual why should they have set times? We should be living in a world that integrates people with sn into society, not making it difficult for them to access facilities

But 'special times for swimming' exist for everyone.
I wanted to take DD swimming yesterday afternoon.
I phoned to check and was told:
12-3pm it was a 'family fun' session. a play session which wouldn't be appropriate to go if we wanted to 'swim'. and wasn't great for a 7 year old as mainly teenagers went.
We also couldn't go between 7-9 adults only / 9 and 10am- women only.
10-11.30 general swim with ropes for lane swimmers was the time we could go.

Most pools have a timetable which includes SN times along with times for other groups.

Joric my complaint is that disabled swimming is provided for 90 minutes per week at our pool whereas my NT kids have hours they can choose from during the week (except they can't because ds1 can't go so they can't either).

Moomins - I do agree about general better access being key, but I think special sessions as well can be useful for some who are very vulnerable. I know some who attend the club wouldn't go at any other time (so lack of mixed changing doesn't really affect them, limiting it to 90 mins a week does).

I would take ds1 at other times as well if we could get him changed. Not sure how it would go but we'd give it a go.

Ds1 is actually very keen to go in the diving pool. I don't think that's a possibility yet anyway but if it was (and I know kids like him who would be able to have a go) he couldn't because of this changing issue. The diving pool isn't open to the public during disabled swimming time.