Fed up with boys in women's changing rooms at pool

[Clary]

Not really AIBU, more may I rant please?

Actually wrote longer post then seem to have lost it, but wanted to moan about number of big lads I have spotted lately in women's changing rooms at pool. Rule is 8yo and over go in correct sex room.

I tend to say nothing having been verbally attacked before, and also told I W A bit U; but today I did query it with a woman and was told such nonsense as "they won't let them go in the men's as they are too young" (they were 9 and 10) and "nobody uses the men's anyway" (??!!).

Told the staff and they said they would tell the women when she came out; but really, why do people think their 10yo boy must change in the women's? What 10yo boywants to anyway? I am not mad about him standing there as I get changed and if I were a 14yo girl I would probably be very unhappy.

The woman today said "well, all the mums will be washing their kids after the swim" eh?? My 8yo can be a bit hopeless but even he can manage a reasonable shower and dress deal. What is the matter with people?

And breathe. Vent over, thanks for listening

Pagwatch, but the situations are comparable. A woman may not be able to swim if there are not single sex facilities available. You can't dismiss the serious issues some women will have faced and how uncomfortable they may be.

I really don't think that trivialising other people's issues is going to help.

I have not trivialised anyones issues have I?

I am also unlikely to have dismissed serious issues woman may have I?

And, again, I am the person choosing not to take my son swimmibg rather than use the womens change facilities

I didn't get a shrug from you, I got a shrug from another poster who told me that me having my swimming taken away would be no big deal as apparently I would be unlikely to go anyway. So my loss would be a reasonable price to pay if it allowed an older boy/man with SN to go swimming (in addition to any time provided for people with disabilities and in addition to any other activities that they may or may not do).

I don't understand that attitude. Why is it fine for my range of activities I can take part in to be reduced to 1 (walking) for the sake of allowing a person with SN more pool time?

This isn't about me, obviously. But I find this idea that woman must suck it up if they don't want men in the changing room, or not go at all, just really weird. There are far more women and girls than there are men with SN who like going swimming. The men with SN have other options (although none of them ideal) while the woman has none. Yet it's the woman who must give up her place.

Actually women did lobby here for same sex communal changing. The pools where I live are generally very old. A few used to have only changing cubicles at the side of the pool. Lots of women complained that they weren't private enough. So the council got rid of these and built 2 small same sex communal changing rooms.

Pagwatch - I'm sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, it's several posters focusing purely on SN for several pages that made me use the 'up in arms' comment. You're probably right, there may well not be anybody who's made enough separate posts to warrant me saying that. I get frustrated when so many ordinary debates that I think there is plenty to say on turn into ones on SN because, to me, that is when they become a non issue and not worth debating - it seems crazy to me that anybody would consider not making adjustments for a disabled child.

But you know what, I don't live with a child with SN. I teach a few and have worked with them in the past so sometimes maybe I think I know more than I do. But I actually have no idea what the reality of living with it is. So I apologise if I hurt you with my flippant comments. They were unimportatn spur of the moment words to me but I should think more.

Halycon, women have certainly campaigned for facilities, particularly in recent years as different ethnic groups have started to access facilities. In many areas further back in time, women have campaigned for changing and toilet facilities for women because there were none at all. In the fifties, women were still being told they couldn't do various jobs because no changing or toilet facilities were available. I appreciate that people with disabilities have also campaigned for facilities, but not before this thread, have I heard of this being done at the expense of women.

At our pool, there is a changing village. This is useless for women who want a single sex changing area because the showers are communal. It is also useless for carers because the cubicles are tiny. Fortunately, in another part of the building, there are small single sex communal changing/showering areas and there is a disabled communal changing/showering area which has direct access on to the sauna room and the pool. So there are solutions, they are just more tricky in very small pools with old facilities.

Pagwatch, I was referring purely to you saying this, not anything else from the thread:

'And fwiw my main irritation is the suggestion that a woman or girl being uncomfortable in a changing room is terrible in comparison to a 14 year old boy being unable to swim at all which seems to be tough shit.'

I think that is trivialising what some women and girls have been through in their lives.

Well as I didn't say that I can't comment.

Although the woman isn't actually giving up her place. My son is.

Fwiw. My son can do nothing else but swim and walk the dog with me.

Not that that matters.

Ok milly. But taken out of context from everything else I said that is not representative. And having been abused throughout my childhood I find it a bit irksome if I am honest.

Why do these threrads always decend into an NT Vs SN debate? Firstly, the children in the OP were not disabled. Secondly, if the rule was uphead rigidly then it would be obvious to everyone else that any child over 9 or 10 in there must have SN otherwise they wouldn't be there.

I think it's just plain weird to be taking your 9 ot 10yr old nt child into changing rooms with you. DS is 7 and would be mortified at the suggestion. It is simply bad parenting to still be helping your nt 9yr old get dressed. What do they do when swimming with school. Teachers do not help children get dried and dressed after swimming and nor should they.

Flouting of the rules should mean suspension of membership or a months ban in a public pool. This would ensure that everyone knew that any older children in opposite sex changing rooms were there because they needed to be.

The issues surrounding access for the disabled is a whole other debate. Lack of disabled facilities is not limited to swimming unfortunately and improved access should be a priority for councils however unlikely in this climate. Jimjams, your pool has a very strange set up if the family cubicles are set within the ladies changing rooms. What on earth is the point of that?

So, the OP is clearly not being unreasonable in this case. The mother of the boys is clearly being ridiculous. Does she bath them and dry them afterwards too? Does she not let them swim or do PE at school? Does she not realise that at school, her boys will be sent to change in the mens changing room often without a male teacher?

I think it must be mortifying for a 10yr or 11yr old girl to be getting dressed only to see a boy from her class standing there.

I really don't understand, how can a changing cubicle with a door on it one be private enough. You have far more privacy in a cubicle than in a communal changing area, surely?

But don't lots of pools have disabled sessions?

TBH I wouldn't mind at all only being allowed to go to the pool at set times when it could be guaranteed there would be no men in the communal changing rooms. Would people prefer this solution?

It's this idea that in addition to sessions for people with disabilities, people with disabilities should be allowed to go swimming all the time, at the expense of a much greater number of women and girls who will no longer wish to go, and will not have a dedicated time when they can go either.

The trouble is, I keep on coming back to it, that what can be done at any given pool depends on what is physically possible, and when you have defined that you then have to consider the claims of different groups; adults, children, older children, NT, SN.

And any "solution" whch does not protect the privacy of women and men in a state of undress is not a solution. That is non-negotiable.

I mean, the men with SN have the option of:

Going to the special session
Going with a male relative or carer

Not great, obviously, but they will still get a swim.

The women and girls who feel uncomfortable changing in front of men will have no options.

There are far more women and girls than men with disabilities who like swimming. So I don't understand why people are supporting this. I just don't get it.

I can understand that different people have different circumstances and priorities and want to look out for their own, but this seems a terribly high price to pay for increased access for a much smaller number of people.

People would beg to differ, Andrew. I don't get it.

SardineQueen, with which bit would they beg to differ? Not the right to privacy when undressed, ffs?

But surely an ideal situation in circumstances were nothing physical can be done about the premises is to
a)Offer a 2h session each week were the pool is reserved specifically for disabled people.
b)Offer 2 or 3 more sessions were it was made quite clear to members that there may be older children/adults of the opposite sex in the changing rooms due to their disability. People who feel uncomfortable can then choose to either go along as normal or avoid these timetabled sessions.

a)Offer a 2h session each week were the pool is reserved specifically for disabled people

Is sensible

b)Offer 2 or 3 more sessions were it was made quite clear to members that there may be older children/adults of the opposite sex in the changing rooms due to their disability. People who feel uncomfortable can then choose to either go along as normal or avoid these timetabled sessions

Will get a lot of complaints (or people just not going) and thus lost revenue.

Manic - you are also missing the point that lots of children with SN struggle to do other physical activities so swimming can be very important to many of them - and their parents/carers whose lives are a little easier if their child gets this physical activity.

I think a good short term solution is the one where for a couple of hours everyday people can expect people of the opposite sex in the changing rooms. This would enable all kinds of mixed parents/carers, disabled adults, the elderly etc to go swimming and NT people who don't want to change in there during this time can change in the loos, go home wet or go at another time.

As I said ages ago, for me I don't give a rats arse who watches me get changed - I am far more worried about scaring a small child for life - but I don't think it's fair that young girls/women who aren't comfortable with older boys/men (or all vice versa) being in the changing rooms should have that privacy afforded to them.

But it's shit - all pools should provide adequate changing facilities for those who require help from someone of the opposite sex - for whatever reason.

Last time this kicked off the was the case of the couple who could no longer go swimming as he couldn't help her change in the womans and she wasn't allowed in the mens :( All kinds of people are being denied access to pools due to age/disability and it's not right.

As for the poster who feels her 10yo DD is just about ready but her 8yo DS wont be ready for a long time - what the actual fuck?

SaintlyJimJams - YAYYYYYY I think about you often since the previous thread and wonder if anything has changed for you - it's good to know that it will next year!!

Pagwatch, I apologise that I have singled you out. I can understand that there is a context where people will use deny wheelchair users access on buses (that wheelchair users fought for) because they want to put their pushchair there, and people will use disabled parking spaces because they consider having an NT child with them equivalent to being disabled. I can also understand that much justifiable anger arises because of this.

I can understand how annoying ignoring the needs of people with disabilities is. I just think that we should look for solutions where we find a way of meeting everyone's needs without them having to explain themselves. Nobody should have to come on a thread on MN, or much worse turn up at a swimming pool and explain that actually, yes, their teen does need a particular sort of changing facility, because despite the fact that they look exactly the same as everyone else, they have actually got a severe learning difficulty or similar and/or have experienced sexual abuse/assault or similar. Because while many others can and will find ways of going swimming and other activities, those two groups will often just not go if situations are made very difficult or judgemental for them. And, yes, I do think those two groups are in some ways comparable, and both are seen as existing in far smaller numbers than is actually the case.

Luckily our pool has mixed changing with cubicles and a couple of family change rooms. No one sees anyone else. The only rule is that over 8's must use the appropriate showers, after that everyone goes to the same cubicle and locker area anyway. There is a seperate and private wet room/cubicle for disabled swimmers to shower and dress so anyone who has mobility issues or needs help is provided for. I was a single mum for quite a while and DS1 has ASD so it could have been awkward if it had been an open changing area or strictly segregated. But since he got older he can manage OK and prefers the privacy of his own changing room which is fine. Now we have DS2 and I need a family cubicle again it can be a PITA waiting at peak times though! The people who hog use them when they have older kids or want to change with their mates take the when there are 6 parents with babies or toddlers queueing. But that 's possibly a seperate AIBU? Although DS1 will change alone he won't go through to the pool without me so sometimes waits in his swimmies for 20 minutes until I'm ready. I think all swimming pools should offer private cubicles to be honest, with larger ones for those who need them. I wouldn't want to change in front of others.

It seems the talk is now about SN use of changing rooms, which I have not much to say about. Going back to OP though and a lot of comments from the beginning, I have to say that at least some 8+ year old boys DO look at breasts. They certainly were keen on climbing up on cubicles in my local pool to look over, to look under the divisions in the closed off shower cubicles (some were open, some were closed) when I was younger. Often their mothers were busy with younger siblings and were letting the boys shower and then come to get changed with them, or once they were changed and mum was still dealing with sibling, they started the cubicle climbing. Their mother, with a crying toddler, trying not to drop anything on the wet floor, herself still dripping wet and in swimsuit couldn't possibly keep an eye on the boys.

I can say that every single time I went swimming aged 12+ (early developer!) I had boys looking at me. It was NOT comfortable and it definitely reduced the frequency I did something I really enjoyed.

Incidentally, also every time I went swimming, boys aged about 8+ who swim with goggles, often would swim underwater, towards me, eyes trained on my chest. I soon got used to kicking or hitting them as we passed, but this too was not welcome.

Additionally, my local pool (olympic size) had a separate diving pool. Every time I started diving, there would be a few boys who would either linger in the pool just a little longer than necessary, to try and get a look down my top as I swam up after the dive (the lifeguards would usually put an end to that pretty quickly as they were strict about getting out of the pool immediately for safety reasons), or stand at the railing beside the ladder to gawp when I got out of the pool.

And I can assure you, I was not a hottie! They were purely there for my boobs.

I'd say that from what I experienced from age 12 to 18 in my local pool, boys aged 8+ do look at boobs, but NOT those of women they think are about the same age as their mothers. The boys that are looking are not stupid, they know they're more likely to get in trouble from someone who looks like they could have authority.

So, my vote goes for family changing rooms and no unaccompanied boys in ladies' changing rooms (whether cubicles or open) no matter what their age and staff who actually enforce the rules.

Oh, and in this day and age, it should go without saying that SN are catered for in public pools, whether for adults or children.

Lol - after that essay, I still have something to say!

My parents were divorced. When I went swimming aged 7, 8, 9 or 10 with my father and brother, I did not go to the men's changing rooms. It wasn't even an option. I was expected to be able to shower and dress on my own - which I did. Why boys are not expected to do the same, I don't know!

Given how many children have divorced parents these days, this must surely be an issue the other way around too.