I don't agree with the MN feminists. AIBU?

[jennyvstheworld]

I consider myself an active proponent of equality of opportunity and a stern critic of discrimination... and yet I find that I can't identify with many of the viewpoints I encounter on the MN feminism page (and often say so). AIBU?

There have been numerous posts in the feminism section over the last few months from people whose sole purpose is to disrupt the section. Such as posters from the 'Musmnet Sucks' FB page for example. We make no apologies for calling these people trolls for that is exactly what they are.

It is quite possible for decent women who believe in equality to make anti-women statements or inadvertently place the responsibility for rape and DV on the shoulders of women instead of men. Feminists simply point this out and say that a statement is rape apologetic or anti-women. That doesn't mean they are calling individual posters anti women or would-be rapists.

The reason mainstream views are so popular is because they are mainstream. Society reinforces these messages very successfully and is resistant to change. It was less than 20 years ago that enough pressure was mounted to make rape within marriage illegal and it took many years to get the mainstream view of 'conjugal rights' subverted.

On the feminist section we like to challenge the mainstream view where we feel it is having a disproportionately harmful effect on women. That's why posts outside of the feminist section tend to get different treatment to those within the section. Out here there are many more posters who conform to the mainstream view and therefore support those sorts of opinion. If that's what you want, fine, but I like to have my views challenged and to take on board new information - not least because I often find it tightens up my own arguments against them. Sometimes I may even change my mind.

What's Jen got to do with my posts BBQ?

Dispute the stats I gave as evidence.

Scottishmummy pretty much pegged it with her post.

Maybe the shouty loud ignorant on that board ruin it for everyone else?

there have been a fair few threads about why people feel discouraged from posting on feminist board, and a commonality of responses. it can be prone to name calling and humphy faces

Coming back to the report posted by AyeRobot it suggests that mental illness is the biggest common factor affecting both men and women. That strongly suggests that we need a big injection of funding and research into mental health in the UK. This is something that would benefit both genders.

Given the disproportionate number of children under one who are killed by their mothers it also suggests that untreated/inadequately treated PND is probably also a major factor in child homicide committed by women. This may also explain why it appears the court take a more lenient stance with women.

It is quite possible for decent women who believe in equality to make anti-women statements or inadvertently place the responsibility for rape and DV on the shoulders of women instead of men. Feminists simply point this out and say that a statement is rape apologetic or anti-women

ie the "decent women who believe in equality" are clearly wrong and need to be shown the error of their ways! This is done by being howled down as rape apologists or anti-women or whatever when actually they are usually just saying the that some extremists may be, well, being extreme.

Perish the thought that said sane, reasonable decent women may actually have a bluddy point.

SM, I would say that is MORE reason for others to come and give their opinion. From what I have learnt already, our version of what is "normal" is so deeply entrenched in us, and in society in general, it IS uncomfortable to view things in a different way. We tend to learn it from our parents from birth after all.

Sunshine...

Can't we just accept that there are evil Women who kill children in the same way we can accept that there are evil Men that kill children ?

Without laying some disingenuous excuse in their favour?

Coming back to the report posted by AyeRobot it suggests that mental illness is the biggest common factor affecting both men and women. That strongly suggests that we need a big injection of funding and research into mental health in the UK

I think there is enough research to know what answers could look like, its the cost and "bad headlines" implications that make governments blanche.

But that is an anti-feminist stance Whatmeworry. What do you want people to do? It's the feminism board. If you post something that lays any of the blame for rape at a woman's door on the feminism board, then you will be told you're a rape apologist.

I genuinely don't know what reaction you're expecting

OG Will answer your question when you have been so kind as to answer mine to you - I did ask first (@16:38) - and I am adding a please. What's with the 'quote' from SGM about penetrative sex posted twice? Why so outraged?

Am just off to re-read the world according to David McRae and will be back to chat about your stats with you shortly (tea time with a toddler permitting)

Swallowed, good point. I did read that Psychologists generally agree that the majority of women kill their children are seriously mentally ill, but fathers who do so rarely are. Although there doesnt appear to be evidence of this or research.

^If you post something that lays any of the blame for rape at a woman's door on the feminism board, then you will be told you're a rape apologist.

I genuinely don't know what reaction you're expecting^

QED.....

Whatme, I would have classed myself as one of those "decent women who believe in equality" I have seen discrimination in action, but never felt discriminated against myself. The answer was clear - Women need to stand up for themselves.

But I have listened, and learned, and read a bit, and thought about what I believe to be true. I never understood before that sexism is incidious. Mothers treat boys differently to girls, so do teachers, so do merchandisers etc etc etc. It all seems to be harmless. But when you add it all together....

I was particularly interested in some posts earlier where mothers of boys said that they had been interested in Feminism before they had male children as they have thought about what they want for their sons in life. Why should what you what for your son be different to what you what for your daughter?

I asked if you agreed with her insane post about vaginal sex and it's obsession.

What makes you think that the comment was worth defending?

Christine

Anti-Feminists or even liberal Feminists are not rape apologists.

But the insult is a standard trot out.

Yes they might have a point. That once you've slept with a man once and are lying in bed with him that it's reasonable for him keep attempting to have sex with you again even if you have repeatedly told him no - and I don't mean whispering sweet nothings I mean attempting to insert his penis. Or that if you get into a man's bed it is the same as giving consent even if you say no. Or that if you are unconscious then the man you are in a relationship with has every right to start having sex with you until you are awake enough to say no.

All terrible points that suggest that men have no control over their actions wen sex is concerned and that women have to expect sexually excited men they have had previous sexual contact with to carry on to climax regardless of their wishes. All points made by women on here.

Women judge other women all the time. Is there anyone who has not heard women use words like slapper and slag to refer to other women? Or heard women come out with comments when eg a woman accuses a footballer of rape along the lines of, 'Well, she did go to his room.'

organic Yes of course we can accept that some women are 'evil'. I never said all women were not. I think it's always worth looking at explanations for all human behaviour though, and when that correlates with strong evidence about mental health issues I'm not going to ignore it because I'd rather label someone evil.

whatmeworry - yes of course I think they are wrong, otherwise I would be agreeing with them. I am willing to change my mind when confronted with evidence to the contrary. As yet I have not been presented with any, apart from organic's rather lame link to James McRae. Whereas I and other feminists have cited various academic/government based research studies, properly reviewed and scrutinised, which back up our opinions.

Well just hide the Feminism topic if you disagree with one of the central tenets of it.

Sorry, David McRae.

of course i post and participate portofino.its open discursive forum
its just a bit tiresome that any disagreement is met with insinuation that somehow you are apologist,unsympathetic or too brainwashed to acknowledge certain given in certain way. so by implication you are complicit with such dysfunction.

at least on aibu,people say yabu you twat/goon/fool and that about it. there is no deep insinuation you're a supporter of hegemony and antifeminist

but nonetheless of course if yopuc,any topic catches my eye i post.that's the eclectic joy of mn

sunshineandbooks
organic Yes of course we can accept that some women are 'evil'. I never said all women were not. I think it's always worth looking at explanations for all human behaviour though, and when that correlates with strong evidence about mental health issues I'm not going to ignore it because I'd rather label someone evil

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Something we agree on at last.

The earths going to stop spinning on it's axis.

SM - but at least you are not too scared to post your opinion.

And women blame victims of domestic violence all the time. Usually themselves. For 'winding up' the man, for not having dinner ready when they want it, for letting the children do something that winds up the abuser.

Women can also blur the line when it comes to consent to sex because if you look back through your own sexual history you start to question things that have happened to you ie if what poster X is describing is rape then I was raped.

of course not,bemused that others are instructed to ignore it though