I don't agree with the MN feminists. AIBU?

[jennyvstheworld]

I consider myself an active proponent of equality of opportunity and a stern critic of discrimination... and yet I find that I can't identify with many of the viewpoints I encounter on the MN feminism page (and often say so). AIBU?

[ChristinedePizan]

On the other hand, wmw, there are large numbers of women who, because MN feminism isn't a closed forum and is part of a wider forum, largely made up of women, have had an epiphany moment and realised that feminism has a very real and relevant part to play in their lives. And that is entirely why I love it so.

Yes, we get a fair bit of flack, but for every dissenting voice, there is another saying 'hang on a moment, that's a really interesting way of looking at it'.

And that's the very best reason of all for feminists to keep posting, despite the sniping from people who are determined to troll the topic.

As another, much wiser, person once said: ""First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"

:)

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Oh, whatme, you've elevated yourself to another level! Well done.

Now, where did the nasty feminists insult you? What I see on this thread was an unpleasant, personal attack on feminists by ... you.

Unless you are trying to tell us in code that you are actually a radical feminist cruelly insulted by your own alter-ego?

[AliceTwirled]

And every time one of these threads fills up with IME not that many people saying the same thing, lo one pops up on the feminist board where a whole bunch of lurkers say how they do appreciate the board. Every time. They just don't do it on AIBU because their mission is not to stir.

And the reason here gets targeted? Cos there are women. And they are talking to each other. That is the same reason that MN gets widely derided and trivialised. Yeh we just ask about biscuits, blah bah blah.

And in feminism not only are there women talking to each other, but they are daring to challenge the status quo too. Uppity things.

But yeh maybe if we stopped doing all that, we wouldn't get trolled. Certainly if you don't challenge anything, no-one is bothered with you.

And, quote of the day:
'First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win'

Fucking glad we're not at the ignoring stage

[Whatmeworry]

Maybe you could clarify so I can understand what you were trying to say?

Specially for you LRD:

"If you stops insulting those wot disagree wiv you all the time, they may be nicer to you an' stop trolling you an' all, yeah?

Simples, innit"

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I don't know about you LRD, but I think all this, 'You post radical stuff and attract trolls' is a little post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Possibly, organic, but then I can understand her ... it's just that doing so requires a significant amount of wrestling with her lack of grammar, logic, understanding, and ability to remember correctly the previous page's posts or the questions she's just been asked. It makes one wonder, you see, how genuinely she actually wants to discuss things, when she doesn't bother to reply to all our interested queries.

[organicgardener]

I understand her LRD, maybe it's comprehension that's the issue?

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I post occasionally, but read often. I am wary of derailing in depth analysis with talk of chaise longue scotchguarding or whatever else pops into my head.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

What on earth makes you think that Mumsnet Feminism is trolled, and other feminist websites/discussion boards are not? IIRC every single one I have been on has had recurring problem posters (AKA trolls)/an increasingly strict moderation policy due to exactly the same stuff. In fact I think MN is pretty good next to most of them, as the conversations are fast and we moderate each other IYSWIM.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Even if you translate it into English, that sentence makes no sense. So, I agree, it is perhaps not your Latin so much as your English at fault, and it's rude of me to comment on a poster's English. I do apologise.

Maybe you could clarify so I can understand what you were trying to say?

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I also wonder how many boards would be as tolerant and accomodating as the MN Feminism section. If you popped onto a bikers' forum and suggested they were all 'nutjobs' how warm would the welcome be? Do you think posters on an Arsenal forum would patiently explain on thread after thread that they are quite sure that they don't want to go to White Hart Lane instead?

[Whatmeworry]

Ipso facto is a Latin phrase, directly translated as "by the fact itself," which means that a certain effect is a direct consequence of the action in question

I looked that up on Wikipedia, of course, but I used my own limited edukayshun to assume it would stretch to encompass both the facts I mentioned as its is nowadays part of the English vernacular, so to speak :o

Or should I have declined it, as it was two facts?

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

What about them catz, narky?



I guess we've entered the realms of wild speculation here (I'd love to know how many MNers really self-identify as feminists and find the section unwelcoming). But on the same subject, it's always interesting to see how many people lurk in feminism - lots only post rarely or only use PMs to comment on how annoying trolls are, but there's clearly a much bigger (presumably at least interested, if not always convinced) crowd there than just the posters we see a lot of.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

'do ask yourselves why a large number of MNers report the MN FM board as unwelcoming, and fill 1000 post threads on the topic every time it is brought up.'

As a rough guess, how many of those 1000 posts would be, as on this thread, those who use the feminist section or lurk on it defending it? Or people pointing out the level of trolling that goes on can make people over defensive sometimes? Or that it can be a tad annoying if threads are constantly derailed by posters attacking the whole concept of feminism? And those pointing out that The Dogs House section doesn't tend to suffer with people posting about how dogs are all shit and what about the catz?

Also ask yourselves why, of all the many feminist targets, outsiders choose to troll and lampoon the MN Feminist boards.

See above. MN is open, accessible and unmoderated. ALL feminist boards are targeted.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

whatme - glad you recognize your limitations. You're welcome to come onto the feminism section, there are some good threads for you to learn from.

What on earth gave you the idea I didn't know what Radical Feminism was, though? I said no such thing, as I'm sure you'll see if you read back.

Btw, you need to look up 'ipso facto', too. Or was that a deliberate slip?

[Whatmeworry]

*sorry, meant to say "large number of MNers who call themselves feminists report"

[Whatmeworry]

I imagine both my Latin and my Radical Feminism are a sight some informed than what you can google of wikipedia

LRD, given that you didn't appear to know what Radical Feminism was one page ago, you have clearly forgotten more than I ever knew :o

Thus I am clearly not worthy to debate feminism with you. So I won't.

But do ask yourselves why a large number of MNers report the MN FM board as unwelcoming, and fill 1000 post threads on the topic every time it is brought up.

Also ask yourselves why, of all the many feminist targets, outsiders choose to troll and lampoon the MN Feminist boards.

You may find, ipso facto, that the issue is not the "what", but the how you do the things you do that does you in, iyswim.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

LRD I'm still stuck on the idea that people are somehow bringing the harassment on themselves by being too 'radical'. The keep your head down and don't attract attention mentality.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

narky, I think that's very true. Sadly.

In a funny way, I wish they'd just admit it - that they don't like women. (And btw, there are women who don't like women, or don't like themselves, too. Which is also sad.) What I really find frustrating is the way some trolls pretend there is more too it than that, and really the fault is feminism.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I posted on a thread yesterday about some of the websites set up by men who pop onto here to troll in the feminist section. There is a lot of hatred out there, and I don't use the word lightly. It seems that the use of the word 'feminism' is enough to attract a small number of unpleasant individuals who, when you strip away all the rhetoric, simply don't like women.

It is a shock to the system if, like me, you've been sheltered from those attitudes, having a father, DH, brothers and male friends who like women and respect them as individuals.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

I'm just trying to think why I find opinions like whatme's so odd - she's not the only person who seems to think this way.

I wonder, what do people imagine is the agenda of feminists, or specifically radical feminists? I'm always puzzled this doesn't seem simple to some point: we want the end of discrimination against women and we want quality with men. IMO radical feminism is the simplest and most obvious form of that.

But whatme's post about radicalism and the way it 'makes' feminists 'vulnerable to trolling more than they need to be' shows she thinks there is some other agenda that feminists have, or she doesn't really understand what feminism is. She's saying that we don't 'need' to be feminists, or radical feminists .... if only we'd do something else (like what?) we wouldn't be 'vulnerable'.

This makes no sense. This is effectively saying 'you'd be much better if only you gave up the feminism bit of feminism'.

Is this just me who's struggling against the lack of logic here?