I don't agree with the MN feminists. AIBU?

[jennyvstheworld]

I consider myself an active proponent of equality of opportunity and a stern critic of discrimination... and yet I find that I can't identify with many of the viewpoints I encounter on the MN feminism page (and often say so). AIBU?

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Oh, you wag, you. I imagine both my Latin and my Radical Feminism are a sight some informed than what you can google of wikipedia.

But - sorry to be picky - your reply is a non-sequitur. What does the fact that Radical Feminism exists have to do with you conflating 'radical' and 'OTT' and with your mistaken idea that the mainstream cannot be radical?

Unless you understand that the point of radical feminism is to change what is currently 'mainstream', you're probably going to carry on making very little sense.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

My reply to whatme*, obviously.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

Accepting the limitations of Wiki, perhaps you could highlight for me which of the different schools of feminist thought listed here would be considered reasonable and not '(make) them far more vulnerable to trolling and trawling (and being insulted) than IMO they need be.'

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

A stalker? Really?! Why?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Is it really one of the biggest boards? How can we tell?

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

I'm just trying to think why I find opinions like whatme's so odd - she's not the only person who seems to think this way.

I wonder, what do people imagine is the agenda of feminists, or specifically radical feminists? I'm always puzzled this doesn't seem simple to some point: we want the end of discrimination against women and we want quality with men. IMO radical feminism is the simplest and most obvious form of that.

But whatme's post about radicalism and the way it 'makes' feminists 'vulnerable to trolling more than they need to be' shows she thinks there is some other agenda that feminists have, or she doesn't really understand what feminism is. She's saying that we don't 'need' to be feminists, or radical feminists .... if only we'd do something else (like what?) we wouldn't be 'vulnerable'.

This makes no sense. This is effectively saying 'you'd be much better if only you gave up the feminism bit of feminism'.

Is this just me who's struggling against the lack of logic here?

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I posted on a thread yesterday about some of the websites set up by men who pop onto here to troll in the feminist section. There is a lot of hatred out there, and I don't use the word lightly. It seems that the use of the word 'feminism' is enough to attract a small number of unpleasant individuals who, when you strip away all the rhetoric, simply don't like women.

It is a shock to the system if, like me, you've been sheltered from those attitudes, having a father, DH, brothers and male friends who like women and respect them as individuals.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

narky, I think that's very true. Sadly.

In a funny way, I wish they'd just admit it - that they don't like women. (And btw, there are women who don't like women, or don't like themselves, too. Which is also sad.) What I really find frustrating is the way some trolls pretend there is more too it than that, and really the fault is feminism.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

LRD I'm still stuck on the idea that people are somehow bringing the harassment on themselves by being too 'radical'. The keep your head down and don't attract attention mentality.

[Whatmeworry]

I imagine both my Latin and my Radical Feminism are a sight some informed than what you can google of wikipedia

LRD, given that you didn't appear to know what Radical Feminism was one page ago, you have clearly forgotten more than I ever knew :o

Thus I am clearly not worthy to debate feminism with you. So I won't.

But do ask yourselves why a large number of MNers report the MN FM board as unwelcoming, and fill 1000 post threads on the topic every time it is brought up.

Also ask yourselves why, of all the many feminist targets, outsiders choose to troll and lampoon the MN Feminist boards.

You may find, ipso facto, that the issue is not the "what", but the how you do the things you do that does you in, iyswim.

[Whatmeworry]

*sorry, meant to say "large number of MNers who call themselves feminists report"

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

whatme - glad you recognize your limitations. You're welcome to come onto the feminism section, there are some good threads for you to learn from.

What on earth gave you the idea I didn't know what Radical Feminism was, though? I said no such thing, as I'm sure you'll see if you read back.

Btw, you need to look up 'ipso facto', too. Or was that a deliberate slip?

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

'do ask yourselves why a large number of MNers report the MN FM board as unwelcoming, and fill 1000 post threads on the topic every time it is brought up.'

As a rough guess, how many of those 1000 posts would be, as on this thread, those who use the feminist section or lurk on it defending it? Or people pointing out the level of trolling that goes on can make people over defensive sometimes? Or that it can be a tad annoying if threads are constantly derailed by posters attacking the whole concept of feminism? And those pointing out that The Dogs House section doesn't tend to suffer with people posting about how dogs are all shit and what about the catz?

Also ask yourselves why, of all the many feminist targets, outsiders choose to troll and lampoon the MN Feminist boards.

See above. MN is open, accessible and unmoderated. ALL feminist boards are targeted.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

What about them catz, narky?



I guess we've entered the realms of wild speculation here (I'd love to know how many MNers really self-identify as feminists and find the section unwelcoming). But on the same subject, it's always interesting to see how many people lurk in feminism - lots only post rarely or only use PMs to comment on how annoying trolls are, but there's clearly a much bigger (presumably at least interested, if not always convinced) crowd there than just the posters we see a lot of.

[Whatmeworry]

Ipso facto is a Latin phrase, directly translated as "by the fact itself," which means that a certain effect is a direct consequence of the action in question

I looked that up on Wikipedia, of course, but I used my own limited edukayshun to assume it would stretch to encompass both the facts I mentioned as its is nowadays part of the English vernacular, so to speak :o

Or should I have declined it, as it was two facts?

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I also wonder how many boards would be as tolerant and accomodating as the MN Feminism section. If you popped onto a bikers' forum and suggested they were all 'nutjobs' how warm would the welcome be? Do you think posters on an Arsenal forum would patiently explain on thread after thread that they are quite sure that they don't want to go to White Hart Lane instead?

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Even if you translate it into English, that sentence makes no sense. So, I agree, it is perhaps not your Latin so much as your English at fault, and it's rude of me to comment on a poster's English. I do apologise.

Maybe you could clarify so I can understand what you were trying to say?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

What on earth makes you think that Mumsnet Feminism is trolled, and other feminist websites/discussion boards are not? IIRC every single one I have been on has had recurring problem posters (AKA trolls)/an increasingly strict moderation policy due to exactly the same stuff. In fact I think MN is pretty good next to most of them, as the conversations are fast and we moderate each other IYSWIM.

[evenlessnarkypuffin]

I post occasionally, but read often. I am wary of derailing in depth analysis with talk of chaise longue scotchguarding or whatever else pops into my head.

[organicgardener]

I understand her LRD, maybe it's comprehension that's the issue?

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Possibly, organic, but then I can understand her ... it's just that doing so requires a significant amount of wrestling with her lack of grammar, logic, understanding, and ability to remember correctly the previous page's posts or the questions she's just been asked. It makes one wonder, you see, how genuinely she actually wants to discuss things, when she doesn't bother to reply to all our interested queries.