Hang them, scum, take their kids, feral brats, stop their benefits, take away their rights, forcibly sterilise them...

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

are just a few opinions I have seen on this board in the last few days. AIBU to think that people who hold those opinions are a bit thick unpleasant and wrong?

Apart from the fact that plenty of the rioters were so-called productive members of society who apparently saw an opportunity to get some free stuff, we live in a democracy and if you take away people's human rights that extends to everybody - even you. If you stop benefits you send children into more poverty, which is a major factor in children growing up to become angry, violent and criminal adults. Remove children and do what with them? Place them with the thousands of suitable and willing foster carers who are hanging around twiddling their thumbs? And what about the consequences of removing children from their families - yes, more criminal, poorly educated and challenging adults. Parent and baby placements? Oh yes, we have so many of those! All well funded and easy to access! Never mind that the courts can and do place DCs in foster care over P&B placements because there aren't enough and that ShinyDave and his crew are doing nothing but cut social care budgets...oh yes, great idea.

It's not only our society that is fucked, it's the world. We are one of the most developed countries in the world and all people want is the opportunity to get stuff they haven't earned. Where does that impulse come from?

Assuming that these people haven't had a brilliant start in life, do they not understand the concept of "doing the right thing"? My pre-schooler gets told to "do the right thing. If you are unsure of what to do, do the right thing. No-one wants to do the wrong thing."

I think that this pearl of wisdom could be useful to some of these knuckledragging dipsticks.

yes molly i completely agree that should be the condems new champaign people with opinions are the new scum. and are destroying the country.

If it is true that we reap what we sow, what did we sow to reap the crap we've reaped this week?

Headfairy - I agree with you in that people are being very naive about the glorious 'olden days' but if you were poor in Victorian times it was a hard life - and resorting to crime was probably the only way to feed your family.

The Victorian underclass would starve to death - that doesn't happen now.

Today's poor are housed, clothed, fed, educated and given access to medicine.

I think a sentence involving several hours of community service - preferably cleaning up the mess that has been created- would be a suitable punishment. I don't think there should be hangings, public floggings or sterilisation and I appreciate that things like benefits and housing can not be taken away but it's ridiculous to allow this mindless behaviour to go unpunished. They need to be shown that there are consequences to their actions not just let off with a warning or a small fine and have their behaviour excused by speculating on their family life or where they grew up.

I'm with you too Eric and NiceCage.

Nobody is suggesting the behaviour goes unpunished. I'm not advocating a slap on the wrist and a hug for the cunts who attacked the student with a broken jaw, or the fuckers who ran over those poor, poor men who died. They should absolutely face the full force of the law. My issue is with people who are calling for illegal, dangerous and stupid punishments without considering the terrible impact that would have on an already quite shit society.

"I think a sentence involving several hours of community service - preferably cleaning up the mess that has been created- would be a suitable punishment."

I agree that this would be a suitable punishment for the ones caught vandalising. Looting is burglary. Burglary carries a custodial sentence. The looters need jail time. The arsonists need jail time. Muggers as well.

I agree that the right way to deal with this is to punish those who have offended whilst simultaneously addressing the social reasons behind it however that does not for a moment mean that I feel 'compassion' for the rioters/looters. I would venture to suggest that those who do haven't had an angry mob descending on their streets, haven't had their husband's jaw broken while he tried to help an injured stranger, haven't had their business ransacked of everything they have worked so hard for. To accept that society must change and that our current system is not working I can understand, to say that all those taking to the streets are victims who should be pitied and sympathised with is, to a great deal of posters, as insulting as the use of the word 'scum'.

Nancy I totally agree, I may not have made my point properly. My reference to Dickens was more about what could happen if we took away benefits and housing without giving people the means to feed and support themselves.

I appreciate our definition of poor today has changed from the past 100 years, though reading the number of threads on here about people who've only got £25 to last them three weeks, and how are they going to feed their children, reading about people who go hungry to make sure their children get a decent meal, I would question that being poor today doesn't involve hunger.

"They should absolutely face the full force of the law. My issue is with people who are calling for illegal, dangerous and stupid punishments without considering the terrible impact that would have on an already quite shit society."

This ^

Oh of course cupcakes. I was talking about people who wereinvolved in the rioting but weren't necessarily caught in the act of burglary/assault/arson or worse.

I think possibly the reason that people are coming out with these knee-jerk reactions (and I'm not saying I agree with them) is that they feel the criminal justice system is, quite simply, too soft. fwiw I don't agree with the sterilising, hanging or whatever else has been suggested, but I do feel there was a an organised element to these riots that society should be very very worried about.

People convicted of rioting/looting/arson/assault etc most certainly should feel the full weight of the Law - but what if that's still not enough? It is pretty galling to watch these lads coming out of their hearings laughing! (or is that bravado? - I hope so, but I'm not so sure).

I think these riots are a product of just how liberal and non-judgemental the criminal justice system has become - and I'm not a right-wing fascist. I just feel there should far less 'understanding' of these behaviours and more condemnation. This needs to start at grass root level - with a change of culture within social services and schools.

Someone posted on a different thread on this topic about how schools/social services have to be 'non-judgemental' on issues such as stealing/drug-taking - as the child's parents would most likely be involved in these activities! If children who are getting into trouble at school, and are getting no discipline at home, and not taught that it is WRONG to steal, what hope have they got?

Teaching right from wrong is fundamental in bringing up children - where are we as society if we don't teach children that?

I think that the reason that people are coming out with these knee-jerk, extreme reactions is because they are bloody scared. Could've been any of our homes being torched the other night. A lot of MNers live in the middle of it.

I'm not agreeing with the reactions, like I've said I trust the law to hand out custodials, I'm just trying to understand why people feel so strongly about it. Y' know, like the way a lot of us are trying to understand the rioting.

Agreed Cupcakes - I was scared too, although not caught up in it.

When someone on here posted that their 66yr old father had been punched, followed and threatened when he tried to stop looters breaking a window, I thought, yes, my dad would have intervened too.

I felt so sad about it - these rioters showed zero respect to anything or anyone, yet seem to have a lot of apologists sticking up for them.

This is pure conjecture, but I think if my car had been set alight and my house broken into and looted, I would also be thinking 'feral rats, string em up!" Just sayin. Doesn't mean I actually want to see hanging brought back for vandalism and theft - but it would be an understandable emotional reaction surely?

I agree Eric - I want people punished for what they have done, and punished harshly at that, but calls for sterilisation/national service/removal of housing etc are ridiculous and ill thought out.

If you want a strong criminal justice system that sends out an unequivocal message about what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour you MUST balance it with equal opportunities for everyone regardless of socio-economic background. Otherwise you go straight back to Victorian notions of deserving and undeserving poor - and look where that got us. People look back on that now with horror.

In the past, despite the fact that the majority of people were poor, the poor was in effect a minority group. The majority group was the well off, despite being far fewer in number. The gap between rich and poor today is widening. We are going back to those days.

It is NOT an excuse and I am all for the full force of law being thrown at the looters, but we ignore social unrest at our own peril. Huge number of these people don't give a toss because playing by the rules gives them NOTHING - not even the opportunity to work their way out of it. We have to increase opportunity at the same time as increasing punishment or all we'll achieve is a growing unrest affecting more and more people.

Yet we're calling for greater policing at the same time as education has become a postcode lottery seriously disadvantaging the poor and tuition fees are increased, let alone a change in the global economy that has resulted in an increase in the cost of living that means anyone without skills/qualifications can look forward to a life where they can never escape the poverty trap despite potentially working a 60-hour-week.

For people in this situation - with no skills, no prospects of gaining any, and facing a future of working poverty or life on benefits - it's easy to see why so many say 'fuck it, I'm having that telly over there seeing as person X has already broken the window'. It's not an excuse or justification but we have to understand or 'senseless violence' may as well mean 'violence we can do nothing about and therefore have to accept'.

Like I said earlier, I'm all for harsh punishments, but unless we take the trouble to learn from this and understand it, it will happen again. We'll all have to pay more taxes to fund the police and courts as a result. But wouldn't it be better to pay more taxes to fund a better, fairer society where people work harder because it actually achieves something? For far too many people today hard work doesn't net them any rewards because their social position is conspiring against it at every opportunity. That's what needs to change.

Well said eric with you on all your points.

And can we please stop laying the blame at the feet of teenage single mothers. They only account for 2% of single parents anyway.

Most single mothers are mid-30s, divorced and working.

I agree people need to be punished, but we often argue on MN about punishing children and it should be an oppotunity to show them the right way. I think maybe we as society need to consider how to show the looters the right way, and I'm pretty sure they know riots/ looting is the wrong way, but to get to the point you don't give a shit about other human beings is worrying.

But if the the UK is truly a democracy, there will have to be a change towards harsher penalties if that is what the majority wants.

Democracy isn't that different to mob rule.

I get the calls for calm and letting the current justice system do its thing, but I also get the frustration many people are feeling at its lack of teeth.

To ignore how angry people are and call them stupid is as dangerous and ill thought out as calling for hangings etc.

"This is pure conjecture, but I think if my car had been set alight and my house broken into and looted, I would also be thinking 'feral rats, string em up!" Just sayin. Doesn't mean I actually want to see hanging brought back for vandalism and theft - but it would be an understandable emotional reaction surely?"

Yep. It's pure anger. I saw a lady on the news who is an owner of a hair salon in Croydon that got smashed up. She was so angry and who can blame her? She branded them "feral rats". Her business has just been obliterated, for what? Do we really expect her to be wringing her hands and saying "Well, there goes my livelihood but I'm sure they had their reasons..."?

I don't think people who have these opinions are 'thick' OP, but I do think they are very reactive and not thinking anything through.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do know it's not to take away benefits, housing etc.

Like most people I'm extremely angry about what has happened in London and other cities. We need to put some serious thought into these issues as a nation and not expect the government to produce the magic bullet. Yes, it's going to take money (lots of it), but a complete change in attitude from ALL of us.