Hang them, scum, take their kids, feral brats, stop their benefits, take away their rights, forcibly sterilise them...

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

are just a few opinions I have seen on this board in the last few days. AIBU to think that people who hold those opinions are a bit thick unpleasant and wrong?

Apart from the fact that plenty of the rioters were so-called productive members of society who apparently saw an opportunity to get some free stuff, we live in a democracy and if you take away people's human rights that extends to everybody - even you. If you stop benefits you send children into more poverty, which is a major factor in children growing up to become angry, violent and criminal adults. Remove children and do what with them? Place them with the thousands of suitable and willing foster carers who are hanging around twiddling their thumbs? And what about the consequences of removing children from their families - yes, more criminal, poorly educated and challenging adults. Parent and baby placements? Oh yes, we have so many of those! All well funded and easy to access! Never mind that the courts can and do place DCs in foster care over P&B placements because there aren't enough and that ShinyDave and his crew are doing nothing but cut social care budgets...oh yes, great idea.

It's not only our society that is fucked, it's the world. We are one of the most developed countries in the world and all people want is the opportunity to get stuff they haven't earned. Where does that impulse come from?

sunshineandbooks well said.

herbietea you have seriously misunderstood posters on here if you think anyone is making excuses (well with one possible exception). Looking for reasons is not making excuses. It is not normal human behaviour to vandalise, assault, rob and terorise others - it's abberant, and it must have a cause. If your child grabbed a baseball bat and smashed your pet cat over the head would you only seek to punish him, without trying to find out why he behaved like that? Would you really believe that a punishment would be sufficient and you wouldn't need to try to find out why he did it, in order to try to prevent him doing it again? I believe that it is absolutely necessary to examine the causes and roots of socially abberant behaviour. Prison has never worked well as a deterrant, nor did corporal or capital punishment when we had it either - so 'lock 'em up forever' type punishments will do very little to prevent something similar happening again, statistically we know this is true. We need more than punishment, we need understanding, which is not the same as excuses or forgiveness.

Oh, and I meant to say this earlier, but I forgot (just too damn incensed!!)

inthenightkitchen ' I appreciate that it's not nice to be burnt out of your own home'

Has to be THE understatement of the century.

Look, Inthenightkitchen is the 'possible exception' I was referring to. Nobody else has made such crass and insensitive comments and in fact they have been challenged on the thread by plenty of posters.

Surely taking their benefits and housing away will just lead to more crime. They need to be punished but not in a way that's counterproductive. So YANBU on ALL your points.

How many people were involved in those riots? Given that there have been around 1,500 arrests thus far, I'd say a few thousand. Do they all have the same reasons for behaving like this? Like I've said on another thread, a lot of the people in court yesterday/today have jobs. Decent jobs, too. So where's their excuse? There isn't a blanket remedy for this as they don't all have the same reasons for being there. The only thing they do have in common is a lack of moral compass.

Eric 'It is not normal human behaviour to vandalise, assault, rob and terorise others - it's abberant, and it must have a cause.'

Could have fooled me, seems a pretty common theme throughout history and worldwide.

IMO people are basically selfish, pretty much everything I read and hear and see confirms this opinion.

Did people really think that the UK was was special place where this could never happen? Why is everyone so surprised?

I live in a sleepy dull 'safe' suburb but I don't fool myself for a second that this couldn't be torn away very quickly if things changed just enough to push people to the edge.

In the night kitchen your views, in my opinion are actually very stupid
(notice I said your views, not you but this will get reported anyway).

I am more enraged reading your the shit you post than I by the other half-wit comment about locking them up and throwing away the key.

How dare you diminish these events by comparing them to an accidental chip-pan fire and a typical Saturday night in town.

crap old pc so bad typos in second sentence, by the sentiment remains the same.

One thing I dont understand is that a lot of people are arguing that these riots took place because of 'social unrest' and 'disaffected teenagers who are on the the edge of society' and basically blaming the government for the whole thing. But the same people also then seem to be pointing out that some of the looters are not on the edge of society, and they have jobs and have come from nice homes. Which kinds of shits of their first point about the roots of the riots doesnt it?

We thought about moving our Mum out of Ealing when the riots started but she wouldnt go! Good for her. She was thinking about volunteering to clear up the High Street!

And I agree - what is wrong with hostels for teenage Mums?

I think now more than anytime in my lifetime there is a real sense of entitlement 'what am I entitled to, what can I claim, what are my human rights'.

And the person who burnt down the shop that had been in generations of one family, the scum who robbed the young Asian chap whilst he had a broken jaw - realistally what should be do with them? What punishment should they receive?

Sorry I should rephrase my point again after re reading my crappy post - some people are saying that the causes of the riots are social unrest and people being disenfranchised from society and that it all the governments fault (cuts etc). But then in almost the same breath are saying 'dont blame the people on benefits, look people with jobs were looting too'. So which is it? Why did the people with jobs and from nicer backgrounds take part in the looting?

I believe the punishments given to those convicted need to be suitable matched to the crime and therefore severe. However I believe these need to be legal punishments, such as custodial sentences, not removing basic human rights to those who rioted.

(Hmm, now I've mentioned human rights, I wonder how many people have switched off to my post or how long before someone spouts "Scum don't deserve human rights?" )

FWIW in this case I feel that giving the perpetrators the chance to visit with the victims, to see first hand how they've been affected would do a lot of good. The most common quotes I've heard from the rioters have been "we're just getting our taxes back" or "this is getting back at the police". I'd love to see them face reality and see the actual effects of their destruction and who it has affected.

Littlewhitewolf there is a concept called restorative justice which would be a very powerful tool in certain cases.

Sunshine, brilliant post. Will all the hang em and flog em brigade please read it.

Thats what I meant Eric--it slipped my mind! Personally I think this would be the perfect oppotunity to utilise it.

I think it is a normal reaction to consider someone who has burnt your home, looted your business etc 'feral' and 'scum', as an individual and personal reaction.

But it is a bit thick to think that removing children, removing access to housing and money would solve anything. It would give people who have very little materially even less, disenfranchising them further from any kind of community.

I work with young homeless people, some of whom do have a sense of entitlement to free 'stuff' and money and support, many of whom give nothing back. There are others who volunteer in the community, desperately want to be self-sufficient and productive. They are all in the same boat though, there are literally no opportunities for them beyond securing a council flat and regular benefits. They have little/no family support, no education, poor literacy skills, no place in communities where they are valued... Nobody wants to employ them, nobody cares about their aspirations or abilities or whether they have eaten anything in the last week. It's hard to make them understand why they should care about anything beyond themselves.

I agree with your post LWW, especially the last paragraph. I would go one further and issue them all with boiler suits and make them help repair the damage done.

I agree with Eric too.

I would just add though, that I think the broad range of people involved shows that whatever combination of things have happened to make so many people believe that looting, arson and robbery were acceptable it includes attitudes that are not just based on our traditional idea of social deprivation (ie people who have nothing and so find it hard to respect people who have it 'easy') and a more complex idea of social deprivation (people who do have things but still don't have respect for their communities)

I think if most of us sit back we can think of loads of people we know across all social boundaries who have an attitude of "if I'm okay, I'm not bothered about anyone else." Politicians did when they fiddled their expenses, nice middle class mums do when they don't bother returning things their toddlers accidently steal from shops, or get pissy when someone else chastises their kids. It's a lot more obvious when you see hundreds of people running around in public in front of burning buildings - but it's still the same attitude.

Can we do anything about that? I have no idea.

In case it's not clear, I am in no way comparing riots to the other things I mentioned, just trying to say that maybe the attitude of some people who were involed is maybe more prevelant amongst all of our society than we might think at first.

Good post, LaWeasel.

What LaWeasel said.

Am getting mixed up now between cupcakesandbunting and bupcakesandtwunting!

ahhhhhhhhhhhh glad to see you are back to your former glory bup.

no excuse for their behaviour. Poverty, huh, they have no idea.
too used to being subbed everything from the tax payers.
My grandparents knew about real poverty when they were young children. they did not become thugs/criminals.
Buck up and get a backbone

I don't think their behaviour can be excused. I don't think that entitlement culture is good for anyone. I do think my family and I are safer if everyone around us has their basic needs met (roof, food) as they are less likely to rob us.

I wasn't brought up here, but if you study the history of the welfare state in many places it was to do with making society safer for those with not fairer for those without.

If you have no job, house or food, and no means of achieving them, what do you do but beg or steal?

(and I say this as someone who lived almost in the centre of a riot this week and who has had to do some hideous explaining to my children about why I was getting them dressed in the middle of the night - we were preparing for escape, and then what has happened to some of their most familiar shops, and why we can't walk past their school).

I think the whole issue is very complex, but that a throw them on the scrapheap approach will make it worse, not better.