Hang them, scum, take their kids, feral brats, stop their benefits, take away their rights, forcibly sterilise them...

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

are just a few opinions I have seen on this board in the last few days. AIBU to think that people who hold those opinions are a bit thick unpleasant and wrong?

Apart from the fact that plenty of the rioters were so-called productive members of society who apparently saw an opportunity to get some free stuff, we live in a democracy and if you take away people's human rights that extends to everybody - even you. If you stop benefits you send children into more poverty, which is a major factor in children growing up to become angry, violent and criminal adults. Remove children and do what with them? Place them with the thousands of suitable and willing foster carers who are hanging around twiddling their thumbs? And what about the consequences of removing children from their families - yes, more criminal, poorly educated and challenging adults. Parent and baby placements? Oh yes, we have so many of those! All well funded and easy to access! Never mind that the courts can and do place DCs in foster care over P&B placements because there aren't enough and that ShinyDave and his crew are doing nothing but cut social care budgets...oh yes, great idea.

It's not only our society that is fucked, it's the world. We are one of the most developed countries in the world and all people want is the opportunity to get stuff they haven't earned. Where does that impulse come from?

As the majority of rioters have not been identified I am at a loss as to how we know whether they are 'productive members of society' or 'feral rats'. Maybe we should let their actions speak for themselves.

Having worked in some of the poorest areas of East London within social housing, there are people who want to use the benefits system as a safety net and springboard to something better, as it was originally intended, and those who think it is their right to be given money for the basics and housing without really attempting to improve their situation.

I was particularly amused / incensed by the young man on the news last night who proclaimed that he had rioted and looted because he was sick 'of paying all these taxes'. I may be cynical but it flitted through my mind that I very much doubted he had paid any taxes in his life, and if he had it was nowhere near the amount it will cost to repair the damage done by the riots. Perhaps if he had not been completely covering his face I might have had more respect for his views.

The riots appear to have been 'to show the rich / police/ add in your own group' that we can do what we like'.

Well, in a democratic country you can't - not without consequences. Perhaps if their homes are taken away from them, they will hesitate and think a bit before burning someone elses down. Maybe we could house those made homeless in the houses / flats that people convicted are ejected from?

And I can't believe people are talking about forced sterilisation, I am completely at that

Morloth, I'm generally of the liberal, left persuasion. My aunt (elderly) was kicked and pushed to the ground in broad daylight by the rioters. Her bag was stolen and she was called a "white bitch". I doubt she'll ever leave her home again on her own.
I'm now frothing at the mouth. It'll be interesting to see how things develop as you say.

So, you punish the benefit-taking/council house-dwelling/feckless parents by taking off of them the means to live.
What happens to the ones who have a job/privately rent/have a mortgage/are childless? They get the same punishment a 'normal' burgler/looter/vandalizer (?) gets? So that's a slap on the wrist a fine and community service then??

I would not suggest that people be sterilised or stoned in the streets but I would like to see some sort of personal responsiboility programme.

If you want benefits you have to contribute - businesses doing apprentcieships, helping out at local services, cleaning up the streets/local parks. Too ill to work, prove it and be supported but contribute in any way possible.

Have to say that accomodation specifically for young single mothers with a youth worker on hand sounds much better than stuck alone on top floor of a block of flats in an inner city area.

Have to say that accomodation specifically for young single mothers with a youth worker on hand sounds much better than stuck alone on top floor of a block of flats in an inner city area.

I think this would be a very good idea. They would have support, they'd be with other girls who were in their position so they would have a social life and their babies would too, and they could learn how to cope with managing finances, a house and a baby without being thrown into the deep end alone.

The thread I started on this subject has now turned into a rage against people on benefits, single mums and unemployed youth. They are overlooking the many working people from middle class backgrounds who were also caught up in the riots. It's easy to think that the issue is as black and white as starting with the working "scum" classes because it's so much harder to face the responsibility that all of society has.

make teenage mums live in mother and baby units

Why would this be a bad thing?

Because you have fundamentally misunderstood the purpose of P&B units. They are not a long term housing option, they are extremely costly (quite often a family will begin with 24/7 support) and their aim is assessment as well as teaching. They are set up for high risk parents and are very intensive. They are not happy little communes with a couple of social workers on hand to show them how to do the naughty step.

P&B units are rare as they are so expensive. They exist to take the place of extended families IMO - where a young parent has no decent support around them to help and teach and model how to be a good parent. Children being brought up within a family or community is what we need to aim for, not 'P and B units' taking their place. Talk about a surveillance society!

JoyfulPuddleJumper - I

I will say again that BEFORE benefits the street were not rife with crime as people had a sense of self respect not self entiltement!

Many are saying we need to overhaul the system though Eric! Would you agree soemthing has to change? If so, what do you suggest. I don;t like the idea of P&B as they are now maybe but a commune style living situation for young mums could be a great thing. It may get them away from the lifestyle that led them there initially. One young mum I know had a baby as she wanted someone to love her - I can't even imagine how fucked up your home life has to be to egt to that place!

I don't think anyone with any sense would condone what has gone on in the last few days. However I was listening to Camilla Batmanghelidgh on the Richard Bacon program on Radio 5 (2pm Tuesday and can still be heard on iplayer). She is a hero of mine but she talked such sense about what has happened - maybe worth a listen, it is not very long.

I don't think that is true DoMeDon, when were benefits introduced into the UK? There has always been violent crime, if anything the riots are just humanity reverting to normal.

The peace that safety that people in the West mostly live in is the illusion.

Totally agree

maybe its the liberal lefties who are "thick" and deluded. They are getting the society they screamed and shouted for. Soft police force, soft judicial system, benefits willy nilly, kids having unwanted kids, the list goes on. Enjoy it. You created it.

And this article today

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html
.

I never said these people should not be punished. I simply object to the ridiculous, unworkable and illegal suggestions that people are proposing as methods of punishment. We already have a judicial system that ought to be meting out suitable punishments. Some people will lose their homes as a result of that, due to spending time in prison. However making people homeless, stopping benefits, removing human rights, forcibly sterilising, removing children are not suitable or legal punishments for any criminal acts.

People are angry Eric, if you can extend understanding to a violent criminal why not extend the same understanding to someone baying for blood in the heat of the moment?

Take away people's benefits/homes is economically stupid let alone anything else - where do these people go? What will they do? What about their children? Prison and the care system cost a lot more than any benefits as would the increased policing and criminal justice costs that would come with the increase in crime as a result of withdrawing state support and social housing.

Are we really saying that all rioters who are in receipt of state support should be thrown onto the streets with no money?? And we would expect the crime rate to fall as a result of this?

i think you should brain bleach the people that hold these opinions and start from fresh.
they are clearly deluded if they want to see 8 year old children in a noose or living in poverty in the streets because they nicked an ipod. i thinks this outcry is sickening when you get mps that steal thousands of pounds from the tax pays but they get to keep their jobs and in most cases the money and then sit there being angry about looters. they are no different or better but because they are in charge they are above the law and can get away with calling the poor scum for doing it, when they do it its just good accounting.
the people the get swamped in the daily mail propaganda really need to start learning to think for themselves rather than being swept along on a reactionary wave.
as i have said before this government has done nothing but tell the country since they have got in to power that the root of all its ill are the "scum" poor the people on benefits the ones draining us dry they are taking your hard earned cash etc..... tell people they are scum enough are you going to be surprised if they behave like it, i am not. but then you also have teachers in there and people with actual jobs (gasp) you mean its not just the "Scum" of the country robbing and stealing do any of you people know how mob mentality works???
i could honestly go on for pages about how angry this whole thing makes me nick clegg warned that before the election that if the conservatives got i to power there would be riots. he wasnt wrong was he? if he could predict it yet still join them it just makes the whole thing a joke really.

YANBU, but for a lot of people (me included) the riots seems like large scale child abuse. The children out there (the very young ones) have either been left out to rot by their parents or preumably actually followed their parents out there. And it actually sickens me.

Not sure why a few trainer shops getting smashed up is such a terrible thing anyway?

Did you not see people's businesses being burned to the ground? People's homes being burned down too? People openly being mugged?

Melanie Phillips is not a great person to quote. Personally I would favour a community based programme. Get the rioters involved in the clean up, in helping people rebuild their businesses and lives. Make them view the damage caused to people up close.
Working on a project to rebuild their community could help bring about some pride, which is part of what is lacking. Throwing people in jail and ignoring the wider issue is not a solution, it's the brainchild of people who have no real clue what the issues are or what's needed.

I like to think of myself as a wooly lefty but the cunts who mugged that Malaysian student/robbed a man in his 60s whilst he was lying beaten on the road/the bastards who forced that lady to strip naked in the street/the ones who set fire to shops with flats above them, containing sleeping babies?

They need slaps. They do.

erm has anyone seen few that conviccted so far .a teacher assistant ,post office worker grammer school pupil.

So lets not lame it all on Lp or people on benefits