to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

Perhaps the Government will now re-think their planned cuts re the police. We clearly don't have enough resources...

Rhubarb - I think that sometimes there really is no explanation for behaviour. Sometimes you cannot blame outside forces...but the person themselves should be held responsible and accountable.

I agree that we are all responsible for our own behaviour, but do you agree with the main points I am trying to make on this thread?

Laying the blame squarely at the feet of a few individuals does not tackle the real reasons behind these riots. Attributing names like scum to mere children does not help anyone.

Were the parents to blame for the poll tax riots? Or the miner's riots? How about the university students who trashed the city back in May, were those parents to blame then?

There is a deeper cause that we should be looking at and threads that encourage hate on mumnset has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, I have to feed my own feral kids now so excuse me if I take leave for a while.

Rhubarb - exactly right. My OH works in a prison, the lads return time after time after time for minor offences because guess what? its like the home they never had and the one they crave so much now as young men. They get looked after, nice food, a chance to be productive by doing jobs they wouldn't be considered for on the outside, improve their education, drugs rehabilitation, counselling etc. He said they love the weekends, the smell from the canteen is mouthwatering. We're all human, we all want to be loved, supported, listened to and looked after... is it possible this generation of young men lacked many of these things right from the beginning?

I didn't agree with the other thread whereby the OP of it suggested that children should be removed but I think that understanding the 'disaffected' is going to be lower on priorities now. Watching the news coversage is really horrifying, three men killed by a hit and run related to the riots. Arrest and removal of the perpetrators from society has to be a priority.

In WW2, looters were treated as traitors. I don't really see much difference actually... the current ones are traitors to their neighbours and communities and have no respect or remorse. Are they going to make good? No, of course not.

Long term there will need to be plans put in place to prevent this from happening again but for now, the priorities are different.

How much is this going to cost the tax payer now that these people are going to Crown Court? Money that could have been better spent elsewhere. I feel sorry for the victims, for the people who've been homebound in fear - and also for the parents, nobody wants to see their children grow up to be this.

I do think that there is a case for removal of children at birth in lots of cases. When my twin were in scbu, (2 months prem) the place was full of drug addicted prem babies, whose parents when they occasionally stoated in, were out of their faces. I couldnt get my head around the huge amount of technology and expertise being focussed on keeping these vulnerable babies alive, only for them to be sent home a few weeks later, to god only knows what. If a mother is using and known to be using during pregnancy, then there is no chance that she wont be doing it when the child is born. Why send newborns home into this situation, when they could be placed from birth with responsible adopters. By the time social services act, you have a damaged 6 year old with all sorts of problems who has been bounced around the care system and is virtually impossible to place with a family. What on earth is the point. Break the cycle of neglect and criminality at birth and gives the poor little sods a chance.

I also take exception to this being linked to "povery" as an excuse. I was brought up in a shit area, never been a criminal, went to uni. My husband and his brother were raised in the shitest of shit areas and went to the worst school in the city. Their mother had little spare time for them as she was working and nursing their father through terminal illness. He died when they were 10 and 12 years old, so then, single parent family. They never had tuppence.Did they loot, burgle, abuse drugs, go into gangs? No, they went to uni and got 1st class honours degrees and then PhDs. Ok, not eveybody is academic. Their childhood friend, from the same shithole, same degree of poverty is not academically bright. He has worked his whole life in minimal wage factory work, never unemployed, never well off, NEVER A CRIMINAL.

There is a difference between poor people doing their best and scum (and there really is a scum sub species) with no intention of working, no intention of obeying the law and no intention of buying into society on any level, other than to take whatever benefits society throws their way.

But please dont use poverty as a justification for this shit, that is an insult to poor people.

Why is it disgusting that people are outraged at watching livelihoods destroyed and sat watching their city centre stores board up in preparation for another night of it? Why is it so disgusting that people are scared to go out and don't like that feeling? Why does it disgust you so much that people want to say enough is enough and start demanding that people take accountability for their actions?

Oh and it disgusts you the idea that maybe, just maybe, there are some shit parents out there who don't give a fuck about the fact their 11 year olds are out looting at midnight.

Christ get with the real world - empathy and understanding is why this mess kicked off - there was so much understanding there were never any consequences.

And yes the little tweenage shits looting and joining in with the worst of it ARE scum.

The irony Rhubarb.

You bang on about having "no hate in society" and trying to portray yourself as some fountain of love and empathy, yet you see nothing wrong in threatening another poster to the point you threaten to report her to her workplace she loses her livelyhood as her opinion differs from yours.

I think that's appalling and any cred you are trying to gain for being a wonderful human being is simply laughable now.

The person currently being tried is a Teaching Assistant not a teacher.

Lesley33 - good post at Wed 10-Aug-11 11:55:44

I also liked Lesley's post.

I think many of the viewpoints calling for 'heads on sticks' are borne of anger. I'm angry; watching a man covering his face with newspaper going into court, watching another man talking about his son who was killed last night trying to help his community. It's hard to think about the why's and wherefore's that led to the rioters and looters or even to care about them right now. :(

"threaten to report her" Hardly, you do appreciate the semblance on anonymity on the internet, no?

Those of you who are happy to brand children as scum and advocate for shooting them/chopping their hands off/imprisoning them etc etc don't have any claim to any kind of moral highground, and all the posturing in the world won't make your bile any more palatable to right thinking people.

The bile seems to be flowing from everybody on this issue, Siamo. I don't think anybody has a complete grasp on the right thinking either; it's not the simple.

Thank you Cocoflower x I love my job, I do it well and it sickens me people pull the 'im going to report you' card for having views which are not at all undeserved. Like the gang member parent who broke a nurses nose in intensive care when she told him he was not allowed in to see his son. How awful to have a negative view of someone so unfairly hey?

Its Ironic and disgraceful.

that maybe, Lying, but I'll settle for being in the camp not advocating to shoot children.

Who gave you the monopoly on being 'right thinking' Siamo? People are entitled to have different viewpoints; just because they don't chime with your doesn't mean they are wrong, just different. I don't think it's bile either - there needs to be severe consequences for these actions - no matter how much you may wish to justify the behaviour by blaming on it society, these people made a moral choice and they chose freely to do the illegal and wrong thing.

Havent seen anyone advocating that children be shot. Doesnt stop them being scum though.

Am I the only person familiar with the concept of alienation? Which isn't thesame as poverty, btw.

"You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty".
And why exactly should I pay for these "career" benefit claimants ?
They have a choice. Those who are in genuine need of benefits have no choice.

I'm happily not in any camp. I think that there is a need to protect the public. The looters and rioters are not going to do that. I'm happy for the government to step it up. Seeing a photo of a police officer gushing blood from his eye, seeing reports of the fatalities and injuries.... at this point in time I think that the 'children' have to be stopped from what they're doing. There aren't enough police officers to go and grab each one by the hand and lead them off for a good talking to.

What would you do if it were one of your children involved in the rioting and looting? Seeing their face on the tv, laughing at they join in a mob and set fire to buildings and steal? I wouldn't want my 'child' shot either BUT there are consequences to actions and it's time that this was stopped. They aren't 'live' bullets, they're rubber ones, used for looters, rioters, etc., they're not going to die, are they, not like the victims of the hit and run?

Lying - you might want to try your argument on the inhabitants of, say, Derry. Rubber bullets do kill.

"right-thinking" is an actual phrase with a distinct meaning. I'm pretty sure that the idea of shooting children is not "right-thinking". Are you going to disagree with me?

and people have, on other threads. Which was the point of this one, not that you seem to have noticed that, choosing instead to believe that the point is to excuse people. It isn't.

alice, I wouldn't bother going there, if people can't grasp the simple difference between understanding and excusing, the concept of Entfremdung isn't going to go down too well!

Well, those who want the door slammed and the key thrown away on the looters are likely to get their wish.

It looks like the courts have decided that they no longer have to follow basic procedure when it comes to anyone charged with anything in relation to the riots - blanket policies are being applied, rather than each case being decided on its own merits.

Which is all very well except that the bulk of the people who have actually been caught and charged aren't actually the people who were at the heart of the violence and damage. It is a bit difficult to see how a previously law-abiding teenager who picks up some crisps from the smashed window of a shop after the mob who caused the damage were long gone, is equal to someone who has attacked police and burned people's homes.

The last time I checked, the courts in this country were still required to follow due process for every individual coming before them. Clearly I was wrong.

Properly pissed off now.

So what deep psychological reasoning and excuses do we have for the 'rich' that stole from our country?

What in-depth anaylsis can I expect about the bankers and tax evaders?