to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

I agree with that to an extent but a zero tolerance policy is going to be the only solution to preventing further looting and rioting imho

aliceliddel... What is your solution? I think that the rubber bullets are probably a very last option and they are less likely to kill than real bullets, which is the whole point. The water cannon will probably be called in before then.

I'm really interested to know how you think this can be halted. The looters/rioters seem to be enjoying themselves and don't seem to care who gets hurt. They are not innocent and I don't see why they should be allowed to rampage for fear of offending their civil rights. What about everybody else?

It is only a couple of weeks ago that I said I thought a curfew for anyone under 18 roaming the streets at night with no reason was a good idea. Many on here thought that was draconian and infringed their civil liberties.

I would wager that much of the trouble (particularly up North) would have been a lot less if such a curfew had been in place.

Siamo... Is looting and rioting, "right thinking" then? Just wondered. I think there's a fine line between understanding and excusing and it seems that when the 'excusing' line gets too hot, that's when 'understanding' comes out. I personally don't 'understand'. I'm not a looter or rioter and I cannot fathom how people can behave this way.

Nobody should live in fear, nobody. Everybody has the same rights but if you break the law, you take the consequences. I dislike hearing the term 'children', that's evocative of young, vulnerable human beings. I don't see that these looters and rioters are vulnerable just now.

Why are you telling another poster 'not to bother'? It seems that because others might think differently to you, they are somehow inferior? That's how it comes across anyway.

The superiority and inappropriate behaviour on this thread is dreadful. There is no single right opinion and to stoop to bullying in order to stamp your own single minded opinion? The bloody irony!

I second Squeeky and have said this on another thread, so sorry, again.

A curfew is needed to get people in the habit over keeping under 10's in at night (after 8' oclock and possibly ealier). A curfew would give the police an ability to pick them up and check to see if their parents are home. Also check that the parents aren't drunk/stoned, which will add to CP plans (in most cases probably in place already). To many families are drifting by the wayside.

We haven't got any water cannons on UK mainland and be all accounts, they haven't asked for them to be brought back.

I was just thinking actually... we might not have water cannons (yet).. and 24 hours notice is a bit daft.. so why not just turn the fire hoses on them .

Um, no. Obviously. You seem to be having a different argument. Who one earth do you think is saying "hey, rioting is great, isn't it wonderful people are afraid! People should be afraid". It's no-one here, is it?
Why are you repeating over and over that rioting is bad, and people who do it are not the nicest people? Do you think anyone at all is disagreeing with that?

The point of this thread was to show disgust at some of the horrible comments on other threads. Perhaps you haven't read them, which makes one wonder why you would have such need to contradict people on this one. On other threads people have said " we should shoot them all" " we should chop off their hands, even the 10 year olds" "we should take them all off their parents at birth", and so on.
Perhaps you are proud of these opinions? Is that why you are so forcefully arguing here?

A simple question for you then: how do you think a society can prevent these things happening again if they don't attempt to understand them?

excellent article here

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/graemearcher/100100379/how-do-you-destroy-a-london-borough/

and i see much of this going on on MN

shrugs - quite sad really

and as an aside, if its "superior" and "bullying" (again with that word, really? grow up!) to think that reactionary calls for state sponsered violence against children and teenagers, then I am more than happy to be called that.

What absolute drivel OP.

Forget for a moment your obtuse social theories and ideas about mob behaviour.

Take any individual who has deliberately smashed a shop window, or hurled a rock at a police officer, or set fire to a building or stolen goods.

What possible excuse can that person offer their victim?

Father didn't have a job?
Not enough money in their pocket?
Jealousy?
Boredom?
Copying others?
Need some excitement?

Attributing noble sentiments as a burning desire for social justice to such scummy individuals is ludicrous to say the least.

We "as a society" did not create that individual criminal.

Your post should have simply been your final comment: There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes

Thats not what people mean and you know it Siamo, the way you shout people down, ridicule them and act like your view is the only view in the world is what people are talking about. Many others have managed to voice a view similar to yours without resorting to your sort of behaviour on here.

It thats true Kungfupanda, then I can see what will happen. They will dish out blanket sentences, lawyers who know the law will step in to prove that these sentences are illegal and tax payers will be hit with a hefty legal bill/compensation for the incompetency that this government shows time and time again.

What I understand Siamo, is that much money has been thrown at this set of problems without a result; society has tried justifying and excusing behaviour by 'oh it's their backgrounds'. That just doesn't wash any more I'm afraid, and hasn't with some of us for a long time. I've taught kids with horrendous backgrounds, and they were reasonable human beings, with a sense of right and wrong.

I may have been in a foul mood one day at school and wanted to take it out on someone, but had I done that, I would have been carpeted and rightly so. Someone might have 'understood' why I felt that way, but it would not have 'justified' or 'excused' my behaviour, as I could choose to act on that mood or not. Same applies here.

As a teacher I would like to know where teachers are barred from disciplining their charges. True I am not allowed to beat them, I don't feel the need to but I am not barred from disciplining them.

I was a single mother, I must have missed the handsome financial rewards. They must be in the post with my flatscreen TV.

Its text, there is no shouting down. And FYI:
bullying present participle of bul·ly
Verb: Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

I have no superior strength or influence, and have no desire for you to do anything. Other than perhaps wake up to the fact that some of the opinions given, as stated, are disgusting.

It's a shame that the hate has now spilled onto this thread.

Bimbo admitted that she thought some of the people she is paid to care for are scum. That is a sackable offence and not without reason. If you think so harshy of those people then perhaps you should change jobs. Watching "24 hours in A&E" I see no loathing, just a lot of compassion and patience even when they are threatened and abused. Not one of those interviewed gave any hint of hatred or resentment of those they cared for. I would not like someone in a caring role to judge me or my children based on their preconcieved and misplaced opinions. That I should threaten her is nonsense, this is an anonymous forum which is why she feels justified in saying such things. It doesn't make those comments any better however.

People are now coming onto this thread and not bothering to read mine or anyone else's points. They are just ranting and raving and judging and blaming. I made some points earlier that I hoped would re-start the thread in the direction I had wanted it to go in my OP. Those points were clearly ignored.

I asked what good would come of describing children as scum? What good would come of taking them away at birth? You cannot treat just the symtoms, you need to find the cause and that is being overlooked.

I also asked why more anger wasn't being turned on the government who cut police budgets and numbers and therefore left us without protection.

Some people do not want to tackle the real issues. I understand there is real anger felt here, but I think it is misplaced and there can never, ever be a place in society for bigotry and hatred.

Sorry to have to leave this thread after I started it. But I don't particularly feel the need to justify myself or my arguments to people who clearly aren't prepared to listen and who just want to take this opportunity to rant and rave at sections of society.

I find it interesting that many of the people on here calling for an "understanding" of the riotous scum (and yes will call them that too) are not very understanding of the reasons why many people might be spouting "disgusting" views.

Do you think people really actually believe that public flogging should be bought back or that people's hands should be chopped off or do you think that just perhaps a lot of people are just sounding off because they are so upset and angry and scared about what has happened? Sometimes people just need to vent when something like this happens.

And I do not see many of the "understanding" folk on here suggesting actual serious solutions as to how this can be prevented - just slating those that do not agree with their views.

Well said, Rhubarb. Great posts.

Telegraph - bitter perhaps?

Bitter perhaps that you can't control human beings by forcing them to live lives where they will never get an opportunity to learn, earn and be happy?

Bitter that the Human Rights Act has made racism illegal and that the equal opportunities act has ensured that non-white brits can get a job in the police service?

Bitter perhaps that despite living sh*t lives, these people still have a modicum of power that the Telegraph would like to stamp out?

Bitter perhaps that they have finally realised that some people need help, and you can bleed them dry as long as you want but it doesn't really solve the problem?

Bitter that non-white community leaders are able to get their voices heard and be listened to - on TV and everything?

Single mothers get benefits to keep them alive so they can look after their kids and hopefully feed them. It's not a conspiracy against men or marriage, it's just that men render themselves useless in a relationship when they can't get a job, largely because they are not trained in anything useful.

@ twinklypearls flatscreen in the post.

OP are you seriously sugesting that what someone thinks is actually "a sackable offence"?

I don't believe you did, so perhaps you should re-phrase that statement.

I heart Rhubarb.

Lets not forget the swingeing reduction in public service has yet to take affect. The NHS is being put out to tender, for example. The doctine of this govt. (and their v. rich friends who own the companies about to take over UK) is that poor people simply don't count, because they can't turn a profit from them. So don't bother bettering yourself, and die young.

and please don't anyone say "well I grew up poor and I did okay" because there are simply not the opportunities for everybody to 'do well'.

if I lived in substandard housing with no realisitc chance of escape, and a minimum wage job to look forward to to get stuck in for years on end, then I might to rempted to review my options of how I behave.

It is NOT a sackable offence to have opinions of any kind about people you work with Rhubarb where on earth do you get this from? It would be a sackable offence to treat people any different but this doesnt happened as ive stated already. Stop trying to hammer a ridiculous point home.