to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

ooh....I think someone else is craving attention!!!

Which govt would you like to hold to account? The one that was in for 13 years, and threw money at the problem without any results? If it was all soooo good pre coalition and it was so effective, why was there still the need for the amount of charities you quote?

I despair at those who refuse to see that this isn't a problem that has just happened in the last 12 months or so; and that the problem can be traced back to the lack of discipline and lack of respect for authority.

As Worraliberty says: 'If this happened when I was a child/teenager, I know damn well what would have prevented me from joining in and that would have been the fear of getting caught and the consequences from both my parents and the police.' Precisely, and at 45 I still have a healthy respect for my Mum, and I have ensured with my ds that he has the same 'healthy respect' for me (that is, the fear of getting caught by me doing something he shouldn't be far outweighs the pleasure/rush he would get from doing the thing in the first place). It can be done.

I think the Tories are probably over the moon that a teacher joined in the rioting.

Whos crying bully? Im trying to see why Rhubarb feels the need to keep singling me out? Why is it always the ones who harp on about peace and love who seem to be the most agressive when people oppose their view?

I may not have agreed with Bimbo on a thread the other day, but I 100% support her views on this one.

I am just dismayed to see so many people on here who feel sorry for and have sympathy for violent thugs. :(

Perhaps when your cars get torched, your businesses razed to the ground, and your children or elderly parents too scared to go out you might think differently.

your buddy sausages was, on your behalf.

And actually nobody mentioned sympathy or feeling sorry for them. I do believe you have missed the point.

a complex issue and I do feel that the OP makes some good points - I don't feel ready to respond in detail, but do need to correct a small detail in the OP: I live in Ireland, the cuts to our salaries, jobs, services have been catastrophic (from an already low base relative to the UK in terms of health, education etc) and actually there has been very little protest: one big march (100,000+) back in Feb and some smaller protests since. All peaceful. One might argue that we should be a bit more angry, but Ireland did what democratic nations do: we made them pay at the ballot box (not that anyone thinks it will change much, but still). There is a gap between rich and poor here - a big one, but there is still a high degree of social and moral consensus (one that I often find myself opposing). If inequality in societies breeds unrest and conflict, then that is the responsibility of the society as much as the individuals within it.

Thats the beauty of MN (most of the time anyway...) people are mature enough to agree with some things and disagree with others without harbouring a 'they iz a cunt' grudge to other threads (unlike the person earlier who said she takes note of peoples names..)

No - but I think most parents can become good enough parents, although some need quite a bit of help to become so. There is rightly a growing recognition that money and time has to be invested into parents and young children to help those parents who want to be good parents, but don't know how to be.

What we were talking about on this thread is the very small number of families where parenting is not going to improve however much support they have. I do think these parents should have their children taken away as babies - but this is not mass taking away of children.

In my city the council have identified the families who take up most resources - about 75 of them. These are families who have lots of different people involved with them as they have problems with everything - damaging their house, not sending kids to school, noise pollution, harassing neighbours, letting aggressive dogs roam the streets, getting banned from pubs, arrested by the police frequently.

I think we should be taking the babies away from these families - while they are still young enough to be adopted and brought up in an alternative family. This is not mass taking away of children. In the large City I live in this would mean taking into care about 200-250 children.

Just to make my position clear. I have not one ounce of sympathy for the people who have done this. I think it's abhorrent and it's sickened me to my stomach. I cannot and never will be able to understand why someone thinks it's ok to destroy someone else's livelihood for their own kicks.

But the point is that this has not come out of nowhere. Gangs of 'feral' youths don't just stand up one day and decide to loot a whole town.
If we don't want this to keep on happening then we HAVE to try and work out why it has, and it goes a lot further than taking babies off crap parents and shoving them in the care system.

just to put flesh on that: my household income has gone down by 50% in the last 2 years; my outgoings are the same. For many people it's worse, or they didn't earn much to start with and are now on, or over, the edge.

My sentiments exactly squeaky...

But the way some people try to put their views across does reflect bullying behaviour- thats not to say its bullying anyone but its certainly got the same elements of bullying- talking over people, ridiculing, implying they've said things they havent, belittling etc

Again. Squeaky... who feels sorry or has sympathy for violent thugs? You are only seeing what you want to see.

I have a lot of sympathy for those affected... Doesn't stop me wanting to understand why there are so many disaffected youths...

Sorry - crosspost - Dickie said it better!

Well bimbo, when you state so clearly the feelings towards some of the people you are paid to help on a public forum then do expect some of those posters to challenge you on those feelings. If you can't take that, then perhaps you should keep your feelings to yourself and look for a job where you don't have to work with "scum".

SoupDragon, true. Which brings me back to one of my first points. Anger and resentment are fuelling the main part of the riots. Nothing to do with the man who was shot, he was just the straw that broke the camel's back. There is so much anger and resentment over cuts and rising prices and it's just come bubbling over in this very destructive way.

You could say that the poll tax riots and the miner's riots were full of kids hellbent on destruction too, but that doesn't take away the fact that the riots were a symptom of a broken society on its knees. This country is no stranger to riots, but it's interesting how we always look past the root cause to blame others.

its text, one can't talk over people. And really, if you aren't able for the robust repartee of AIBU, thats not the fault of the other posters.

This is what I dont get- why do they have to be 'disaffected' rather than greedy and criminal? Like the professionals involved in this, they aren't dissafected they are just criminals and want to jump on the bandwagon. Why aren't people simply bad these days why is there always a justification?

because nobody is "simply bad". Human beings are complex, as is human society. Your glib easy labels are too basic and therefore worthless.

Yes Rhubarb ive already stated I do...and that loads of other professionals who work with such people do- what of it? We are allowed views about the bad people in the world whether we are in a caring role or are simply road sweepers! I CAN cope with that thank you very much it seems like you are the one who cant!

I grew up in a very poor area. A multi-cultural area too. Nobody had much money. But we didnt go smashing the town up, making other peoples lives worse, breaking the law, and terrorising innocent people or trying to maim the police. So forgive me if I dont want to pat the scum on the hand and say "there there, I understand, you have had a hard life, it must be so difficult for you..".. because that is just a crock of shite.

They are feral animals who have no fear of repercussion, and no fear of the law. They demand respect but give none back. They want it all for free, and if they dont have it, they will just take it.

Community spirit? yup, shit on your own doorsteps and destroy the lives of those who live peacefully amongst you.. way to go!

But judging from your comments to me Siamo you are not here for robust repartee...but rather to single out comments (mine particularly) which offer a difference of opinion to goad a reaction......

My main point, again. Is that pointing the finger of blame, setting up vigilante groups and making ridiculous statements about putting babies into care will not help the situation we are in. Does anyone disagree with that?

We need to look at the root cause of the riots and why it was that so many professional people were caught up in it as well as youths. Does anyone disagree with that?

The government also needs to consider its own reaction and why the cuts have left so few police officers able to stop the looting. Does anyone disagree with that?

Shall we start again from there?

and that siamo....is very thinly veiled bullying...as are your continuous condescending comments to Bimbo

Or maybe we just need to deal with the idiots who think its fun to cause merry hell like this better?