to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

Actually those childcare vouchers were a godsend to many parents, myself included and meant the difference between work and staying at home. SureStart has also transformed thousands of lives. Young adults with no hope were encouraged to go to college (I was one of them) and make something of their lives. I wouldn't have been able to do that if there wasn't a grant in place to pay my mother rent.

What went wrong was that there was no communications and inadequate checks in place so that fraud was rife. You will always have people who play the system, nothing changes there.

We're quoting Rogers now? Southern baptist, Disney boycotting, homophobic, pro-life, "family values", rabidly anti-palestinian, misogynistic Adrian Rogers?

Lovely. At least you've made yourself clear.

Brilliant post cinnabar.

Rhubarb... On the taking of babies from parents we've agreed all through the thread. I just don't want the government to arbitrarily start cutting the 'silver cord' whenever it feels like it. There are enough incidences of when it is necessary and I think a carte blanche approach would be a huge mistake.

I think that what has happened, with this whole looting/rioting business, is that so many issues have cropped up with no chance to actually stop and think about the ramifications. Even though I'm nowhere near the riots/looting, I have colleagues and friends who are and I'm mad on their behalf - and scared. :(

It's all happened too fast and for me, the worst of it is that it seems to be spinning out of control.

I'm guessing that most of us can accord with various points other posters have made, it's just such an emotive topic that some points are being missed. I'm very guilty of that.

If you take the first sentence out of the Adrian Rogers quote, you are left with some fairly basic Marxism. An analysis of society that concluded there is inherent conflict which is inevitable. Just saying.

I love the way its wrong to call a murderer an 'animal'.

But its totally ok to call a parent sympathising with another parent over losing their child a "red-neck".

Hear hear LyingWitch. Me too.

Right, must now put children to bed. Night all.

I would argue my quote but it would seem the mob (irony anyone ) are looking to make themselves right on both ends and missing the point completely. So, as you were - rip eachother apart and forget you actually all on the same team.

I was also one of those people who would have struggled without the help that was given to go to college and back to work but I do know alot of people who just chose not too, you can't help people who don't want to help themselves and if you can't encourage people by offering them financial help to improve the quality of their lives what should you do? If their not happy with the amount of money they get should the government keep handing them more?

Mob? Individuals in different places/countries not communicating with each other are a mob now?

Maiavan argue it then! I didn't say that you had no right to believe it. Just that I would have had more time for the argument if you had made it rather than Rogers...

OP I dont know what the answer is

one solution would be to NOT give some teenage mums a council flat, instead have them in a mum and baby unit whewre both they and the baby get support and monitored, that would (a) disincentivise some and (b) increase child welfare

but thats probably too expensive?

read today about one of the looters, teenage mum, had baby at 17, her mum cant bear her as she is violent and toxic, and got booted out of her council flat for antisocial behavior. these are the parents that make me despair..... the grandma is powerless and very concerned about her grandson. sad

this provides food for thought - would be interested to hear what people think of it

I think this extract from the Guardian (sorry can't call me 'daily mail reader') sums up perfectly what I am trying to say:

"I don't think it helps to call the looters and arsonists "disaffected". Apart from anything else, it's an understatement. But also, crucially, anything that smacks of bleeding-heart explanation or excuse alienates many other people in this country. Those people believe that this simply removes personal agency and responsibility from individuals, and is therefore part of the problem. You know what? I'm afraid they are right.

It is precisely that lack of personal agency and responsibility that has given these actions their inarticulate, apolitical character. Even this "protest" is without sentient direction

....Many people have their pet ideas about whose fault this outbreak of disorder is, or about which political policies, economic conditions, sociological developments or cultural trends have made the biggest contribution. Many of these ideas seem oppositional to each other, so much so that usually each and every one is "owned", either by the left or by the right. These are false oppositions, in the main, and they don't help."

I was brought up in a very working class environment and would have been called a feral kid by your kind

Are you deliberately missing the point? Bimbo isn't saying that you are feral if you are poor/lived in a council house/don't have a job/were/are working class.

She is saying that people are feral if & when they decide to smash up windows, enter a building & help themselves to stock that the rest of us (you included) work hard to afford. They are feral when they decide to rob someone in the street who is injured, while supposedly 'helping' him. They are feral because kids as young as 9 are on the streets looting shops.....

You aren't feral for not having all the mod cons, or not having Nike trainers, or not being able to afford holidays...you are feral when you start helping yourself to it.

And I think you know that Bimbos is saying that & you are being deliberately obtuse!

Is there a particular reason you think that trying to understand the causes precludes sympathy for those affected?

You don't need to try to understand the cause. The cause of the looting & riots were greed. Pure & simple. It wasn't because they were bored. Or fed up with having to pay taxes/wanted to show their discontent at having benefits cuts etc...GREED! They wanted something for for nothing & used the convenient excuse of the riots to loot.

I hadn't realised that peoples stores of compassion and understanding were so small

I have compassion for the old guy that is fighting for his life after being beaten, I have sympathy for kid that was robbed by the people who pretended to be helping him. I have compassion & sympathy for the woman who had to jump out of her window after the shop below her was set alight.

I have none for anyone who has caused people to lose livelihoods/jobs/lives (3 lost I heard today) & homes because a few hundred people think the world owe them a living! I don't care if they are doctors, soldiers, postmen whatever, you cause wide spread panic & damage, you are all the same.

Crime knows no class. When the opportunity presents itself, the only test of a decent human being is whether you decide to walk away, or get stuck in. Regardless of age/gender/race/etc

Interesting BBC news last night. The bald journalist, can't remember his name, at the end of the bulletin said how the government were very keen to blame it on parents and a break down of society but when they were faced with questions about their own responsibilty and where they were when the trouble flared they were less keen to talk about it.

They also said that planned cuts to the police budget would continue.

I think you are being extremely selective re your comments rhubarb and are definitely choosing to ignore some very valid arguments that contradict your own.

You keep harping on about external causes which you suggest contributed to the apalling behaviour of the riots.

You continue to condemn those who call the rioters (children you say) scum....when in fact very few have done so on this thread. As someone said, these people were labelled scum AFTER the event and as a direct result of what happened. In my opinion the term was quite apt.

You continue to dramatically comment on how people advocate babies being taken from their "scum mothers"...and ignored comments where people have explained quite clearly what they mean....that this measure should apply in smaller extreme cases.

You mentioned the student riots and made comparisons....when really there are none. The protests had a foundation, a basis..whereas these riots have none. I think I mentioned this before....but you conveniently ignored it as it didn't fit in with what you have been harping on about.

You continue to harp on about political factors (the cuts etc) and economics.....and when someone pointed out to you that a teaching assistant was one of the first charged...you went strangely quiet.

I think you rather like the sound of your own voice and are basking in the praise of a few. So does that mean you will spend the next 24 hours spouting on this thread....with little gaps in between to go and feed and see to your own kids?

sausages - to answer your criticisms:

Yes I do believe there to be other causes to the riots. Riots don't just happen out of the blue. Greed has always existed as has criminality, but for people to take to the streets in such numbers is unusual and I doubt the issues are as black and white as you like to think they are.

Yes my original post was that I did not like whole sections of society labelled as scum which is what some threads on mumsnet and some posters were doing. I have already agreed with LyingWitch that some of the comments were made genuinely out of anger, but for others it appears to be a chance to propogate their right wing views.

I mentioned the student riots as a valid comparison because that also had large elements of criminality perpetrated by educated people so I asked if the parents of those students were also to blame for their kids' criminal behaviour. There were also looters then I believe.

I think you will find I was the first to mention the professionals being arrested and did so to make the point that not everyone on the riots were kids from poor backgrounds. In fact some of the kids labelled as scum were the ones helping to clean up.

And I make no apologies for not letting this thread take over my entire day whilst I have kids to look after.

Am I still not listening to the opinions of others?

And I make no apologies for not letting this thread take over my entire day whilst I have kids to look after.

So you do have kids to look after....in which case I wonder why they received just snippets of your time yesterday, in betwixt you being on here for the majority of the day and night.

How ironic....given the subject of this thread and your comments within.

Is that the best you can do? I answer your points so your reply is to have a go at my parenting skills? Get a life.

These riots would not have happened if the original London riot wasn't started after the shooting.

People saw them getting away with looting in London & started to chance it in their own cities & other parts of London. Using the -long- -forgotten- shooting as an excuse.

The riots started for no other reason than opportune looting. It doesn't help any one to pretend this was about politics or unrest, or benefit cuts.

Sorry, that was in answer to Yes I do believe there to be other causes to the riots. Riots don't just happen out of the blue

I don't know about that. There has been unrest in the capital before without this knock on effect. Although I do worry that once people realise that the police cuts will take place and the police stretched to breaking point, they will take full advantage of that. Burglaries are already up for instance.

It's not just looting, it's civil unrest. The only politican who dared a walkabout yesterday was Miliband, the others were met with fury by residents who rightly accuse the government of abandoning them.

If one of the reasons that the looters were allowed free range into shops was as a result of police cuts then it's fair to say that the cuts do have a large part to play in what happened.

Agree with S&M - ( sorry Rhubs )

It's very easy putting the world to rights tapping away on a laptop.