to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

I'm off to make tea now so don't get offended if I don't post again. I have a family to feed.

To be frank, Rhubarb, my concerns right now are for the elderly in the looted/rioted areas. I'm going to do something positive for them, see if there are some befrienders or some visits possible through 'Age Concern', maybe run a couple of ebay auctions to raise some cash. I'm also going to see if there are any specific help avenues for people who've had their homes burnt out.

It's nice that some people have decided to start a thread to see what can be done for the youth, I wonder how long the actions will be sustained for. I'

Anyway, if everybody who wants to do something right now, actually does it, rather than getting caught up in the moment and just pledging it, it's positive in my book.

This is the same your way or the high way no middle ground,no one elses views matter. This is not about like itvis about respect for all opinions and considering the subject here you have no regard for the opinion of others you walk all over their views. People are burning others property and destroying whole communities opinions will be divided, yours is only one. As for reporting someone tontheir employers I am .

I kind of agree with the OP except the fact that everyone is responsible. I'm searching my soul and I'm concluding that personally, I am not responsible for this. I live modestly. I don't buy loads of stuff. I don't flash wealth (what wealth?). I have taught primary children and done my level best to try and instil some kind of moral code and personal responsibility in the children I have taught. I set a good example to the young people I know.

I am seeing the children in the Somalian refugee camp who are playing with donated lego and I weeping with despair.

The youth club I worked at was shut down due to us as a staff team deciding that we could no longer put up with bricks being thrown at the windows while we were inside. Along with youth workers having the brake lines of their cars cut, threatening behaviour, actual bodily harm. I could go on.
I was assaulted by a (large) 12 year old, but was advised by the police that it was pointless taking it further as nothing would happen to the boy.

On one occasion I rang the mother of two brothers (7 & 9) who were breaking the windows of the building next door.
She told me to fuck off, it wasn't her kids. Well, actually it was. But again, the advice from the police was that nothing would happen.

The police need more power, the age of criminal responsibility needs to be lowered, and yes, some children should be removed at birth from bad parents. I have also worked in child protection, so I have the experience to talk about it.

Cocoflower, your post at 18.08
I think the looters should be punished but I'd also like to understand why this all happened and how people can be encouraged to feel part of society, rather than apart from it.

I don't want to hug a thug but I do think that extreme inequality makes people feel embittered. I don't think that gives them an excuse to go out looting, but I don't think labelling people as scum does anything to address the problem either.

The problem with some of posters on here is they seem quite determined to stick labels on people and seem unable to accept that wanting to understand the reasons behind this DOES NOT mean they condone what happened.

I do agree with lying my sympathies lie with those affected by the riots, those who have had their livelihoods taken away, the elderly and vulnerable. Though yes we do have to understand why this has happened and its not just one cause but a variety of factors. I don't have kind words to say about the perpatrators. You have to understand that people are naturally angry, without the looters and the rioters, this would not have happened in the first place.

I didn't write that at all

According to your profile Rhubarb you live in Wiltshire. The rioting has got to Gloucester and Bristol. If it spills further into the West Country and gets to you, perhaps to Salisbury; will your opinion be the same?

Using the withdrawal of EMA is specious I'm afraid; it was a system that didn't work and could be got around to get EMA when it shouldn't have been paid.It was also divisive.

Cutting public spending - needed to be done. The UK is not in a good state financially- it was either cut spending or raise taxes significantly. You've seen presumably the turmoil on the markets and that the US have lost their AAA rating - that could have been us - we could have been downgraded further and that would have raised the cost of borrowing for individuals and the country further. Not good.

I don't think that the Govt have encouraged firms to relocate abroad at all. The 50% tax rate may have had something to do with it. The majority of penal tax legislation was dreamed up by one G Brown alongside one E Balls. They created the conditions for this to occur. Businesses are just that - they will go for tax where they get the best rates and value for money. They exist to make money after all.

I think those involved in the riots do need removing from society even for a short while. People have died; have lost their homes, their livelihoods, and those they employed are presumably also out of jobs now. I think serious questions need to be asked about the younger kids who were present - why did their parents let them out? I know approximately where my 15 yo is all the time and as a younger child he wouldn't be roaming the streets looking for trouble, it would be after school stuff, homework, dinner and bed.

I think you are very dismissive of those who don't believe in your line of thinking; people on this thread have made many valid points but you are like a little girl putting her fingers in her ears and saying 'I can't hear you' when being asked to look at reality. Life isn't always pink and fluffy Rhubarb - it can be nasty, brutish and short and that is the reality you need to engage with.

Why should we look for anyone else to ultimatley blame?

Yes there have been influences in society but ultimatetly we all have free will and it's the individuals choice wether they act upon it or not. The buck stops firmly with the rioters.

This attitude of pass the buck, hold no-one accountable is huge, huge part of the problem that we see has resulted in riots and death. Parents, teachers and even police have so little power these days.

Youths have no fear of blame and consquence becuase there is none. Look at the news, open your eyes see what the rioters and writing and saying rather than holding this false 'poor-lambs' view. They know society won't punish them.You keep up with this attitude of never holding them accountable and you have created and sustain the barbaric behaviour we have witnessed.

What example is the setting to other decent people who didn't loot? Especially the working poor? They have to work hours and hours and other can walk in and take? Working doesn't pay but crime does?

What will the decent youths of today think- why bother working hard when I can loot and hurt people? Why should I try anymore?

Can you not understand people's moral and trust in the goverment will go down the pan? People will simply give up and become even more disllsuoned and angry.

And worse of all what the actual looters think- lets do it all over again as not much happened last time and everyone just blamed the police/ goverment/ tax evaders/ advertisers anyway?

Looters in Tottenham were driving up to PC world in their mercedes cars, loading up with TVs and lap tops.

The rioters are supposidly intelligent professional people, e.g teachers, youth workers, graffic designers, I am sure that they are aware of what they were doing, yes the rioters should be help fully accountable. Is it also that they wanted to join in, they have a primeval instinct that makes them act like an animal who does not know any better?

There are some very bad aspects of human nature, and the riots have bought this to the forefront. Its like they have stepped back into pre caveman times.

woollyideas good post; I have to say that the rhetoric around all of this makes me pretty uncomfortable, not least because of its potential to stereotype and abuse. Yes, some choice things have deservedly been said about looters etc, but my concern is that terms like 'scum', 'feral rats', 'animals', 'mindless' are being applied more broadly to a whole class of people most of whom have not engaged in these behaviours. That will really help them to respect the police: the conduct of this thread surely shows that if you fling insults at people they respond in kind, dispensing with any possibility of mutual respect.

FWIW it's hard to espouse any kind of view which suggests that there may be causes (behind this is presumably an assumption that a society where this happens is not, for whatever reason, a good, sane or happy one) before being drowned out by. For having the courage to start the thread, I salute Rhubarb even if I don't agree with her on some things.

thank you woolly, my thoughts too.

Noddy, kindly read all of my posts and then pick out the bits you don't like and I'll see what I can do to make it sound better for you.

There appears to be those who, despite what I say, are determined to make out that I am excusing the behaviour of the rioters and condoning violence.

I have said on several posts now that those people should be brought to justice.
Coco I have said on several posts that old people are dying of cold whilst the energy companies live off record profits.
I have said on several posts that there should be more discipline in schools.

I actually agree with some of those who think they are disagreeing with me.

I don't see how singling out one section of society and labelling them as scum will help anyone. Or the knee jerk reaction of taking babies away from mothers.

No-one answered my questions so I'll ask them again.

Were the parents of the kids who rioted at the student fees protests also to blame? Should their children have been removed at birth? After all they also looted, set fires, nearly killed a police officer, caused thousands of pounds worth of damage and had communities in fear. They too looked like thugs until you found out that some of them had come from Eton and were children of famous pop stars. After all, anyone can wear a hoodie, cover their faces and be called scum.

What about those young people from the same backgrounds who are now busy clearing up the streets? Who didn't take part in the violence and who condemn it? Should they have been taken away at birth?

You will be a long time trying to understand their reasons, have you listened to them on the news? They cant even give reasons, their not rioting to bring attention to a cause, They're doing it because they know they can get away with it, half of them are so young they won't get any punishment at all, they can break things, steal things , set fire to things and noone will punish them not even the parents. They may be referred to some youth offenders team who will take them on outings and tell them it's not their fault it's the society they live in. When realy they should be punished and made to understand there are consequences you have to face for acting the way they have

Brilliant post.
Society is breaking down exactly as predicted.

That was to the OP.

Yes those involved in the riots, are feral animals, they were certainly behaving like wild animals with no regard for anyone else but themselves. People are angry, I am sure that if you were affected by this you would feel similar.

Thank you for this Rhubarb0 - i can honestly say I agree with every word you have written. The hostility and open contempt that has been dished out to public sector workers by this Government, (largely fuelled by the right-wing media) has sent a powerful message that individuals who work to maintain the infrastructure of our civic society are not worthy of being treated with respect. Remember that unspeakable cock Letwin and his comments about public sector workers needing "real discipline and some fear"? Who exactly are these lazy, incompetent public sector fat-cats with gold-plated pensions? Oh yes, that'll be the teachers, the police, frontline NHS workers, paramedics, firefighters, social workers.......

So next time I read a rant about the lack of respect shown by today's youth to authority figures, I'll think about just how much respect these people get from the powers that be.

Trouble on MN these days is that if you don't indulge yourself in some hysterical, OTT, abusive posts about rioters then it means you are as guilty as someone who has set a fire or robbed a shop.

Sometimes there might not be a reason, as I said human nature has a dark side to which these riots have brought to the forefront. Its like evolution has never happened.

"According to your profile Rhubarb you live in Wiltshire. The rioting has got to Gloucester and Bristol. If it spills further into the West Country and gets to you, perhaps to Salisbury; will your opinion be the same?"

I suspected as much. Lucky Rhubard not having to spend the past few days in a state of dispair, sitting at home heavily pregnant and wondering if my DH and DD's father would make it home from London or not or getting frantic texts from my friend also in London in a state of panic.

And what I went through is merely 1% of what a lot of people have had to deal with.

For instance I atcually cried watching this;

Howso, rhetorician, did anybody call the people 'scum', feral' or 'mindless' BEFORE they looted and rioted and destroyed people's peace of mind and property?

I rather think the 'insults' appeared after the event.

I personally don't think it takes courage to start a thread. I'm thinking of the police and the communities right now showing extraordinary bravery in trying to protect others. That's courage.

scaryteacher thank you for looking at my profile. I'm actually from Manchester and still have family there.

I will ask once more that you read all of my posts. Because if you did you will see that I DO think they should all be punished.

Rather than me putting my fingers in my ears I do think that a lot of people are not reading my posts because they are too busy assuming what my opinions are. I have actually agreed with some of the points made by those who have disagreed with me and conceded some valid points made by them. Obviously it's a pain to go through an entire thread but I do feel that I am just repeating myself time and again to people who think I am condoning the violence.

I do not like the terms "scum", "mindless", "animals", "feral" and "rats" being used to describe other human beings, especially children. I don't like talk of taking babies away from mothers because of an assumption that they will grow up to be criminals. If that makes me a condoner of violence then I give up.