to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

Pouring money into things is not the answer. Giving schools more powers and funding brilliant initiatives like SureStart is. The Labour government's softly softly approach did not work, I'll give you that. But the Tory answer of "we're alright mate" is only making matters worse.

Not all the rioters were young disaffected kids. Some were older professionals, so you cannot label them all as feral kids with shit parents. Same as I said for the tuition fees riots. Lots of educated kids with rich parents took part in that one - would you blame the parents for that riot too?

And yes of course it's so easy to criticise those offering an alternative view as Mother Teresa's or the bleeding heart lefties, but that too shows an ignorance and unwillingness to listen to any other point of view but your own.

Yes people are angry and yes those responsible should be punished. No-one on this thread has said that those responsible should be let off. What we are saying is that labelling them as scum and making, frankly hysterical remarks about taking babies away from mothers, does not help anyone. It just makes those who come out with such comments seem, dare I say, like Daily Mail readers?

I am angry. I am livid that wages are going down whilst bosses soak up huge bonuses. I am livid that the government have encouraged businesses to move offshore to take advantage of the tax loophole they created. I am livid that charities which did so much good, such as SureStart, are being cut. I am very angry that those who had their education for free are now saddling ours with debt after promising that they wouldn't. There are many many things I am angry about and frankly if there was a revolution to overthrow the government I'd be there tomorrow. But don't mistake that as making excuses for the criminal behaviour of the rioters. I don't.

What I am doing is looking at the bigger picture of how this all started and why and for that I can look back to the Labour government and the start of the recession, when banks were sending credit card leaflets and making sales phone calls persuading people with bad credit to take out yet more loans. This government have had their chance to put things right and they've blown it. Now with rioting on the streets they should quit. But instead we will all turn and point the finger of blame at each other and be content with calling for babies to be separated from mothers and labelling kids as scum and feral rats.

Welcome to the spirit of Britain.

Totally agree with you there Rhubarb - on everything you said.

Our society is rotten with inequality, bigotry and the ill informed.

But why bring up all this if you realise "But don't mistake that as making excuses for the criminal behaviour of the rioters" then?

You seem to be sorely misdirecting your anger at who it currently should be at- the rioters who stole, destroyed, even murdered and set fear into the hearts of innocent people.

That's your opinion, Rhubarb, I personally think it's ridiculous to blame the current government for problems that are legacies from the previous one. Each government seems to do that, it seems. How quickly do you think that can be resolved?

I'm really not in favour of taking children away from their parents, not unless it's absolutely necessary, but I am in favour of taking a hard line with arrests and punishment now to set an example, whilst looking at ways in which the adults of tomorrow can 'buy in' to the country again and feel engaged.

I think you're missing the point that people are really very angry and they are blaming the people who are actually responsible. Cause and effect. Not everybody loots and riots, it is a miniority but the perception of the events of this last week is such that it seems to be widespread. The morons responsible do not deserve understanding or encouragement, that time has passed, they need to be held accountable and justice for their victims SEEN to be done.

And that's not the 'spirit of Britain', that makes me angry too... Britain is so much more and I think it's time we reclaimed our country and stopped making excuses for intolerable behaviour.

If you bothered to read my posts Coco you would see that I started this after I got tired of reading posts on mumsnet that called for the removal of babies from scum mothers, that the kids on the streets were no more than scum and that it was all the fault of parents and the poor.

I have tried to show that far from being all the poor kids who rioted, there were also working adults and even professional people at the riots. I have tried to show that no good will come of bigoted talk and knee-jerk reactions and I have tried, God help me I've tried, to get people to see the bigger picture and ask WHY? Why now? Are these the actions of a contented society? One that is happy with the government and the way things are? Or are these the actions of a country governed by corrupt men and women?

Something has gone seriously wrong and just spewing out Daily Mail opinions will not help to get to the bottom of it. That just results in vigilante attacks and society turning on one another.

reclaimed our country? What do you mean by that?

And blaming this government? Did you not read my last post when I actually said it started with the Labour government?

Jeez, I seriously wonder why I am wasting my time. You hear what you want to hear. It's funny that now the riots have started all of this bigotry comes out of the woodwork.

I have posted this on the other thread but will repost here if thats ok?

Did anyone see the guy on Sky News this afternoon who runs a scheme helping youths in disadvantaged areas? Not sure what it was called. He made some very good points about this which I agree with. A lot of these young men come from single parent families (NOT slagging off single mothers here) where the mothers have lost control of their kids (usually when they get involved in gangs which in turn comes from having a lack of a good male role model). These women are scared of their kids. They have grown into men who are bigger than them, do not respect them and who often abuse them physically and mentally. Something to think about but again not excusing these boys behaviour at all.

Half hearted protests, What planet are you on?

Just because you are on benefits does not mean you can't live an honest life, i was a single teenage mother and spent time living on benefits, I've also struggled on the minimum wage. I don't think society owes me anything and nor do my children. If you want to have nice things you have to work for them!

As for society taking some responsibility for those teenagers behaviour, I dont think so! I am responsible for how my children grow up and what they become, not society I am certainly not responsible for how other people's children behave

'the courts have decided that they no longer have to follow basic procedure when it comes to anyone charged with anything in relation to the riots - blanket policies are being applied, rather than each case being decided on its own merits.' Justice by definition should be fair and equal for all....and so the unfairness,inequality and subequently anger and resentment escalates.

'I can look back to the Labour government and the start of the recession, when banks were sending credit card leaflets and making sales phone calls persuading people with bad credit to take out yet more loans.'
I think the cause was long before this.I look back to the Thatcher years and the dismantling of society.

AngryFeet, I hear you. I'm glad there are still people out there trying to help these youths, however again can I just point out that not all of those rioters were youths or from single families?

Families need help, not judgement. They need a support network but if people insist on calling them scum and treating them as scum why are they then surprised when they act like scum? This society has huge problems and we need to look beyond the bigotry. I just hope that someone has the guts to stand up and say what needs to be done, rather than take the easy option of targeting individual groups and blaming them for all the unrest.

spiderpig you may well be right.

Moomins, I'm sorry but I thought I had made it very clear that I was talking about half hearted protests BEFORE the riots. Obviously not. That post was on about page 3, do keep up

You said, Rhubarb, that this government has had time to sort it out. Do you think that's long enough? I don't; it takes much longer to solve fiscal problems.

Reclaimed our country... I mean by that that every person who takes a pride in this country, who loves and invests in this country, should reclaim it from people like this looters and rioters.

Other posters are right when they say that these riots have polarised people; they have, but it's not entirely clear cut for me, that doesn't make me a bigot, it's a rather ignorant comment.

If you think you're wasting your time there's a remedy for that. You seem to have a problem with anybody not praising your posts. You too read what you want to read and I find your later posts quite hectoring over other people's viewpoints.

Rhubard Im not been rude but do you not think we all though in about 10 seconds flat this must be about the economoic climate yada yada?

Do you not think we have all asked why?

Im sure 99% thought intially this must be some deep -seated politcal protest.

I dont know what you think you have eduated us with exactly.

However it takes a little bit of studying deeper the facts to realise it had nothing to do with it all.

That is called anaylsing the sitaution. Yet you brandish people bigoted and daily mail as the have a different understanding than you do.

You think the goverment/ banks and tax evaders are too blame.

I don't and my opinion is just as valid.

I find you very, very rude.

I find it quite grotesque you are so kind to looters and try and absolve them of any direct blame yet vile to anyone who dares have different opinion to you.

Once again well said Coco! Hug a thug and treat any decent human being with a different opinion like a piece of shit, nice!

I agree Rhubarb. It would help if the police could track down the main instigators here. Being that this was so clearly organised there must have been some. It is frustrating as I want to be able to understand and even help but so far on the news all I have seen is young people giving no reasons for what they have done apart from we hate the police, we want our taxes back blah blah. This obviously morphed into a mob mentality with various people joining in just because they could. But who were the main perpetrators?

Excuse my spelling

May I point you in the direction of this thread also? I know it's self-publicising, but I think it's worthwhile.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1276881-When-the-rioting-is-over-what-practical-things-can-we-do-to-make-a-difference

Where have I treated you like a piece of shit Bimbo? Or suggested that you hug a thug? May I suggest that you want to visualise me as some kind of blonde hippy giving out flowers to the rioters as that serves your argument much better.

LyingWitch, no they have not had long in power but in the time they have been in power they have managed to cut spending for public services, cut EMAs for those who need them, cut funding for charities like SureStart, encourage businesses to leave the UK and base themselves offshore, and watch as job losses increases and funnily enough the country heads towards a second dip which what economists have been predicting all this time. Would you like to give them more time to do more damage?

Coco, the people I call bigots are the ones who call mothers scum, blame single parents and like to think that everyone involved in the riot was some kind of feral child that needs removing from society. If you have an argument worth considering I will engage with you. As I have done with lots of other posters who have not necessarily agreed with me, but if it fits your argument to think that I only hear my own voice then I shan't waste my time trying to prove you wrong.

What exactly, Coco, do you think is to blame for the rioting? I would love to know.

Great OP Rhubarb. I'm off to read as much of the thead as I can bear now.

Who do I think is to blame?

Well, strangely enough the rioters.

Can I just thank cinnabar for linking to such a heart warming thread. After such depressing threads that one is like a breath of fresh air.

I'm going to sign up to do something. I know we've disagreed plenty on this thread Coco, Bimbo, Lyingwitch and others but this is something positive you can do to make a difference and it doesn't involve handing out flowers or hugging thugs

I am asking you to put all our disagreements to one side, join the thread and offer your help.

Good grief.

Rhubard do you think the looters should get punished?

Yes or no?

Coco, I was hoping for a deeper answer. After all, people don't just take to the streets and riot for no reason.

Will you sign up on the other thread?

This is a thread about a thread yet it is still here. I have no problem with the content this is something that needs to be debated But that is not what is happening here. Rhubarb you seem hell bent on imposing your opinion as fact and the only way which is ridiculous. I do remember you telling me that if I had noticed sooner when my ds became a bit of a cheeky teenager I could have pre empted his teen antics and disciplined him. You even said you didn't believe he changed overnight and told me as much yet you don't have a teen yourself. This is a democracy we can all have our say just because it doesn't fit with you doesn't make it less valid.

I think I answered that question in lots of my previous posts coco.

Yes.

What has that to do with the link cinnabar posted?

noddy, I have nothing more to say. I have answered everyone who has taken me on, yes even those who have disagreed with me. Just because you didn't like what I had to say on a completely different and irrelevant thread does not mean to say that this is the same. I had an opinion on that thread, you disagreed with me. I can take that, I'm a big girl. But don't bring your dislike of me onto a completely different thread.