Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

AgentZigzag I agree it must be difficullt to seperate from the family conditioning.

I don't have any solutioins how you do it - other than to think it through with your own mind, and to focus on doing the right thing for your kids.

All I see looming over the OP and his partner - are 3rd parties attempting to control and coerce them to circumcise for NO legitimate reason - other than that's what we do. The OP and husband have to figure out how to resist the coercion as much as anything.

"There is the other option of not doing and just not mentioning it to anyone. Just make sure your DS dosen't go flapping his penis around in mixed company and everyone will be happy."

Yes - good idea! How is anyone going to know.

And he could say - "mind your own business - you cheeky buggar - my penis is my business thank you very much, and no, you can't look!!"

But if the family believe there are legitimate reasons for it to go ahead Animation, and the OP and his wife feel wider family acceptance of their child hinges on it (even if that's not strictly true and it could turn out to not matter), although there's no legitimate religious reason for them, approval from family members could make it legitimate.

'other than to think it through with your own mind, and to focus on doing the right thing for your kids.'

Exactly.

(I'm surprised at how I accidently got sucked into a thread about circumcision actually it's not a thread I'd usually post on (maybe for good reason))

'Just make sure your DS dosen't go flapping his penis around in mixed company and everyone will be happy'

I think you're being totally unrealistic Snapes, knowing as I do toddlers inclination to strip off and streak about in polite company

its wrong to cut the skin from the end of a baby's penis. just plain wrong.

its wrong to cut the skin from the end of a baby's penis. just plain wrong

UNLESS there is a medical need imo.

(I'm surprised at how I accidently got sucked into a thread about circumcision actually it's not a thread I'd usually post on (maybe for good reason))

So am I !!

I've talked too much.

Good luck OP. It's not an easy one.

yes unless medically necessary obviously

Unless - if I've read this right so far, circumcising the baby at 8d old confirms him into the Jewish religion/race. Isn't that going to be a bit offputting for your parents at least? Just in case they are coming down on the "do it!" side.

Since neither of you are following your religions fully, if at all, it seems a touch odd that your DW wants your possible DS to be confirmed as Jewish before he gets any kind of say in the matter - he might want to become Muslim, or do neither. Should he have that choice taken away from him?

I don't know how easy it is to renounce being Jewish, if at all possible even (given that it's considered to be a race as well as a religion) - he can't be both, can he "convert" to Islam if he wants to?

Anyway - I am beginning to agree with whoever it was who suggested that in fact you should just get a sexing scan done on the baby - you could both be putting yourself through needless trauma here if it turns out to be a girl baby. And if it is a she, your little Queenie, then you can take a little more time (and when there are no pregnancy hormones involved) to discuss the situation with future little boys. OTOH, if it turns out that this baby is a boy, then you need to find resolution fast.

I know you said you didn't want to find out the sex now, but I think it might be of benefit, depending on how much tension there is in the house over this issue.

rev according to UN and WHO figures female circumcision is also commonplace and widespread in benin culture, but i am assuming you havent had this done to your daughter?!! but yet you have for your son?

i think circumcision should only be done for medical reasons myself and none of my boys have had it done, tho my eldest may need it done later this year, however we are trying other methods that the consultant has suggested first (foreskin too tight) and they have also said they may not have to do a full circumcision, they can just 'snip' the edges to loosen it?.

and those who have said the op has overreacted, they have apologised but this is obviously a very emotive subject for them and rightly so tbh, its not something i would ever want to have to do to my children.

there are many things done in the name of religion/culture, that doesnt make them right.

I think it's wrong to cut bits off babies without a good medical reason.

I keep coming back to this - because the more I think about it the more I am astonished!

It's astonishing that although we CAN'T go around touching little boys willies, but we CAN chop a bit off, with no good medical reason.

I suspect men who has been circumcised will not complain - but on some level do they feel a bit violated?

I was just wondering how feminism/feminists regarded male circumcision, so I've started a thread in the feminist section so I don't hijack the OPs thread.

Animation - I know of one very vocal example. Wreckingboy on Livejournal. Be warned this journal entry contains images which might be upsetting, and it's obviously biased and contains explicit/emotive/upsetting language.

BertieBotts - Hmm, Nasty!

The OP clearly isn't happy with the idea of circumcison and doesn't want it for his baby. It's the cultural pressure that gets to him - so much so that he'd rather have a girl!

That's some fucking pressure - that you'd rather NOT have a son!

But I ask myself why is this practice legal anyway - to cut off part of a baby's healthy penis?

Isnt carrying out a ritual so early essentially 'claiming' a child for one religion? Neither OP or his partner are particularly religious yet they are contemplating an irreversible religious act.

Surely the child should be allowed to choose for himself given that he inherits two heritages? He may choose a third way which is neither religion.

I still cant help seeing that messing around with a perfect creation for the purposes of club membership is an impertinence beyond all measure. It wouldnt be allowed to tattoo him so why could it be considered appropriate to cut him?

OP, maybe you need to find out a bit more about how much distress (or otherwise) it produces in babies, as opposed to 12yo, which might set your mind at rest a bit.
Sympathy with having to face this decision.

Personally I would probably have it done to keep the peace with both families. (But that's just me - if I upset my mum she threatens to disinherit me!)

to the OP i sympathise with the cultural pressure, my dh wanted our dc circumcised, not for religious purposes but for cultural purposes (he's african). I researched both arguments & when i realised he could make his own decision when older I put my foot down and said no. I was also petrified what the IL's would say but they actually supported me. as for the less STI's risk, it's not strictly too, I have a friend who works in GUM & treats the same amount of cut & uncut men for infections x

I'm sorry to see that some of the language used on this thread is upsetting the OP. This is the most moderate cutting debate I have seen on MN and most have not been on AIBU!

Whatever you choose to call it, it is an unnecessary amputation of a part of a baby's body (unless done for medical reasons of course). I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose to do it, for cultural, religious or other reasons.

As for looking like his father, I can't as an adult remember seeing each parents genitals more than once (and those were on walking into the bathroom without knocking occasions!). We weren't a naked family, at least once I had grown up to the point where I can retain my memories as an adult. I can remember that my mum had a scary looking bush between her legs so I certainly didn't look like her and don't seem to have been damaged by it. Other than wondering how all that hair got there, I don't think I ever gave my mother's fanjo a second thought during childhood! Children see all grown ups as different. I really don't think it could possibly be harmful to have genitalia that looks a little different to your parent's.

I can see both sides to this. XH wasn't circumcised, however as a little boy he had huge problems with his foreskin being too tight. He can still remember it being 'freed', and the pain that went with it.

On the other hand, I've also dated a couple of circumcised men. Both of them had problems with the lack of sensitivity and found it difficult to orgasm without any 'help'.

Not very helpful I know, but a couple more things to consider when weighing it up.

My son was circumcised at 8 for medical reasons, he found it painful afterwards which was pretty upsetting. It also took ages to heal, it's not something I'd agree to unless there was a medical reason!

Op I'm sure it's a difficult decision for you and your wife. Unfortunately we have to make lots of these as parents and sometimes these go against other family members opinions.

I was worried that ds would be bullied at school if people found out he was circumcised ( kids can be bloody mean if someone is different) fortunately this hasn't happened although he doesn't know anyone else who is circumcised ! If your family are going to treat him differently because he isn't circumcised I don't think personally I'd want to be around them!

Are you sure they would have a problem if you didn't have your child circumcised? after all you have married outside your religion and they seem ok with this? I would have thought that would make them broadminded enough not to have a problem with a penis

Bloody hell! Do I win the prize for the amount of times I wrote circumcised!

You seem to have a whole load of arguements, which in its own way seems to weaken your case for me.

Firstly - any religious or cultural reasons. I really don't understand picking and choosing bits of religion. Why out of all the bits of Judaism that you could follow has your wife chosen this one? Why not keep a kosher home, give up leavened bread for passover or cover her head in public? I assume she does none of these, apologies if my assumption is wrong. Of all of the bits of Judaism to pick, she has chosen what seems to me the most harmful and irreversible.

Secondly - being bullied by extended family for being different. Are you sure that he won't be bullied by other boys for looking different by being circumcised? After all they are far more likely to see his penis than his extended family once out of nappies. They may even consider the circumcision to have been done for the other religion. I am the child of a mixed marriage and I think that if the grandparents have an issue with that then they will still have an issue with it even if you have your child circumcised. On one side of my family my grandparents had no issue with it and it has taken until writing this now to realise that they treated me just the same as their other grandchildren, I just took it for granted. On the other side I am aware that it is an issue for my grandparents to a certain extent and I really don't think that there was any way of adding little bits of religion to my to make me anything other than their grandchild from a mixed marriage.

Thirdly - the health benefits. You concede that these don't swing it for you but do mention them. I have no idea if they exist or not. I would be wary of considering them as I am not sure about you, but I have never put myself in a position of signficant risk with regard to HIV, HPV or genital warts and I would give my DC the benefit of the doubt in terms of them having safe sex later in life. While I would get my daughter (or son if offered) the HPV vaccine, I certainly wouldn't trim bits off a baby to impart some slight reduction in their risk of these STDs.

I am delighted that my body is intact and my parents did not presume to adjust it for non-medical reasons before I was able to take decisions about it. I would love to hear from the adult sons of parents in your position to find out their opinions (and on both sides).