Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

i need to go and lay down someplace quiet and dark

UFHS - no not every parenting decision is like this. Think most people would have a view on circumcision one way or another. This isn't about raising your child, it's about agreeing as two people with different agendas.
Part of his heritage would be British too though and foreskins are intact here.It's not as if he can't have it done later as you say. I was amazed at the way Americans have a preference circumcision too. I hate the way a cut penis looks..all shiny and porn star. Much prefer a foreskin, more interesting for me, more possibilities for him and just,well a nicer idea IMO. It's there for a reason surely?

Cross posted on your Chat thread too.

As a personal opinion only, I do thinks it's a totally unecessary invasion and mutilation of a small childs body.

But the much bigger issue is that you should have decided something as fundamentally important as this before you even tried to conceive. How could you both have gone into this not knowing what you wanted to do? Not having already made the decision and come to terms with it, be happy with it? The lack of communication is your issue, not whether to cut or not. What happens if you say no, absolutely not? And she insists on cutting? How do you think you are going to resolve it? Will one or the other of you leave, get a court order, what? Sounds dramatic, but how else do you see such a diffficult issue being resolved if the two people involved are on completely entrenched, diametrically opposed sides?

it wouldn't be the first redundant bit of bodily kit. the Uvula (punchbag shape at the back of throat) for one. evolution is not perfect. just constantly improving. vestigial organs and tissues are more common than you might think. its not just how the wider Jewish or Muslim community might view him but also how people of faith closer to him will react. the last thing we want is for him to feel rejected by his grandparents. now i don't think this will happen, but it's a worry just the same. someone get me a cold compress and some asprin. i feel faint.... :(

Sparkle, think that's harsh.

OP, you sound v reasonable to me.

Whichever way you decide to go, do come back and let us know if it's a girl or a boy won't you?

sparkle we are not of the mindset you proffer. we got to this stage because i guess we both assumed given our respective cultures that this matter was already dealt with in favour of the snip. I only really started feeling contrary to this recently. if you read my posts here you will see that my position is to capitulate if push comes to shove. but not before attempting to find a way of talking it through first.

I've said above this will involve approaching in a non judgmental way and conducting the conversation in a manner sensitive to cultural sensitivity. she and i both are fairly good at this. this is why i am keen to avoid terms like genital mutilation. language like that is bound to inflame the situation. we've been lucky up until now insofar as being able to talk our respective families come around to our point of view (if not way of thinking.) i do believe that it may be possible to talk her out of it (thats all that is required to stop this going ahead) but i wont force the issue. i love her i don't want to push her away or ask her to push her family away. bottom line is it's up to her and i will respect that.

I've read much around about threads to do with this subject can get out of hand. this is not what i want to happen here i'd ask everyone to remember that we are both decent human beings here and we are both trying to do the right thing. we're just starting out in this bizzar adventure and will likely needd all the help we can get. this does not include people being nasty. please don't make me regret coming on here. so far things have been fine and i've been really heartend by much of the interaction over many posted subjects. lets try to keep it that way please. thanks. i'm off out to work until 16.00 but will be back then. thanks everyone have a great day

Ah leave him alone poor baby. I maybe wrong but a couple of my male friends tell me that they are less sensitive cos of circumcision,as the end is constantly exposed and thus looses sensitivity.
Your list of reasons are good ones.
I love the name Queenie btw.

I'm a regular but using this name for anything related to religion or culture or family. So yes, I've been there with your dilemma - although given that I the mother am not Jewish whereas DH the dad is, the baby in question is not halakhically properly Jewish and would need to convert in order to practice.

We didn't circumcise him. It was a decision, though, that we made not on religious or cultural grounds but simply on our gut feeling. I'm not a squeamish or overly sentimental person, but I just looked at his tiny sweet newborn penis and knew that I didn't want to do it to him, and DH agreed.

Certainly, if he wants to be circumcised to be bar mitzvah or later in life, it will be more painful than it would have been at eight days. But I think that, if he wants circumcision as part of a faith commitment, that faith will enable him to cope.

But do you not think it might be worth getting a quick gender scan? There's around a 49.5% chance you'll be having a girl and not needing to agonise over this?

I would disagree with Andrew. I don't think it's necessarily less painful to have it done as a baby - remember how much a minor injury such as a grazed knee hurt when you were a child? The only difference with babies is that they can't tell you how much it hurts.

I have no idea how to resolve this, and nothing useful to say, but stay here once you've sorted this OP, I like your style :)

sensitive to cultural sensitivity... for the love of god.. i meant with regard to cultural sensitivities. therre are likely more blunderes here. no time now. see y'all this afternoon.
bye!

yeah Queenie is my choice. it's old skool english and a massive two fingers to both our respective backgrounds.... teehee.

Well i love it,prepare for some comments tho,i have recently had a Delilah and cannot believe how rude people are.I find an Icy stare helps.
She has to have surgery soon and i realise its not quite the same but the thought of putting my tiny baby thru any fear or pain is killing me.

Gosh what a dilemma!

As TemporaryUsername, my DH is Jewish (non practising i might add!) and I'm not. We had this debate when we were TTC. He was pro-circumcision and me not. My argument was that as i am not Jewish, my children would therefore not be Jewish so the argument of having it on religious grounds didn't stand up.

He said that he would want his 'willy' to look like Daddys, but i figured that he would be seeing his friends willies more often with school showers/swimming so i felt it would be more important for it to look like his friends so he wasn't the odd one out.

Turns out we were unable to conceive and we adopted and got a DS at 18 months old. DH wanted to ask when we got his details whether he was circumcised but i wouldn't let him. I didn't matter to me at all in the grand scheme of things. What mattered more was whether we felt we could provide this little boy with what he needed phyiscally and emotionally.

Other than when he changed his nappy for the first time, he has never mentioned it so clearly the reality of having an uncircumcised little boy doesn't bother him as much as he thought it might.

Oh FFS grow some balls and put your foot down. If you have a son - do the right thing and say "no" to unnecessary and intrusive surgery!

My DS is 10wks, we had him circumcised at approx 2wks due to cultural not religious reasons. It was a lot quicker and faff-free than I thought, my son hardly cried due to the local anaesthetic but was a bit fussy the day after. The ring fell off after a few days. The only inconvenience is giving them antiseptic baths a few times a day until the ring falls off. Definitely better to do when newborn, healing is faster and less chance of infection. I do think its more hygenic, as does my DP being circumcised himself and he's never had a problem with sex either. British think its mutilation, its really not that much of an ordeal, only if you want to make it one.

It annoys me when this is discussed and often the parent who wants this done is "non practicing" how can it be flipping important then?You either follow a religion or you dont,you cant just pick out the bits that suit you fgs,especially if its about someone else who cannot speak for thenselves.

not going to contribute to the debate, just correct you on one factual detail. Jewish baby boys are where possible circumcised on the 8th day. Sometimes it is not possible, including for medical reasons. So it is delayed. Once the "magic" 8th day is passed, any later date is OK, though normally it is done as soon as possible after the 8th day. It is relatively common to delay by a week or so, usually if the baby is jaundiced, very premature or the mother is unwell following delivery.

rev "the only inconvienience was giving him antiseptic baths a few times a day" I wonder if that was his only inconvienience?

Then start talking fast UHFS!

Seriously though it does sound as if you have the ideal base to move forwards on this - you do talk, you do communicate. It's just that I would have wanted a decision made before I tried to conceive, it's of such monumental importance to your potential son's religious, cultural, and life choices that it's too important to gamble with or leave to chance or the last minute. But then I'm rather a control freak I'm afraid, I don't like uncertainty and couldn't go into a mixed marrriage without flogging those issues to death before hand :)

Bottom line - it's not just up to her. This is your child too, your flesh and blood, you need to work out where your line in the sand is. Because if you're prepared to 'capitulate' then why bother talking about it, if she's so convinced? And if you think she's not as you say, then again, where's the issue - you talk, she capitulates. I'm confused I guess. You're in a win-win situation, why all the angst?

May I compliment everybody on the very reasoned debate about a rather emotive subject on this thread - there have been so many bunfights here recently that this is very refreshing !

I have no knowledge of understanding of the religious side of it, so will not comment on that other than that all religious customs were made up by humans, often for valid reasons at the time. These reasons are often no longer appicable now.

From a medical perspective: circumcision is a minor procedure in the greater scheme of things, but nonetheless carries risk (mainly bleeding and infection). I have seen a few (muslim) boys with poorly done circumcions who required revision surgery in hospital. One or two of the ones I am familiar with may well be left with permanent disfigurement.

For that reason alone I have to come down in the 'leave well alone' camp.

DH adds that he would miss the loss of sensation that invariably comes with the glans penis being exposed all the time .

There are some very good reasons on this thread (religious and practical/medical) against religious circumcision. Maybe your DW would find reading this thread interesting??

And yes, do stay on MN, you sound like a Good Egg, UselessForeskin .

i am with in the night kitchen on the genital mutilation part just because it has been an expectable part of society forever doesn't make it ok. your son should have a say in whether parts of his body are to be chopped off so why not wait until he is old enough to make an informed religious choice if he wants to be an active part of the faith he can have it done. if not its a moot point.

Well heel pricks, immunisations, being cold and naked to be weighed are all inconveniences, for a baby aren't they? But we believe it is to ensure his good health for now and later in life, people seem to save their emotions to submit their babies to these rituals. We think, as his parents, that circumcision is healthier and more hygenic just as he is being breastfed, despite my own inconveniences, because it is far supreme to formula feeding and will make him healthier later on (people on here are far more pragmatic about that aren't they despite the risks of increased illness, increased likelihood of hospital admission, increased inconvience tot he baby - painful reflux etc.)

People on here get over-emotional about things they have never witnessed or experienced, just what they have read on the internet, its not enough to form a well-reasoned opinion. The surgeon we used (Circumsurgeons in London, OP, they were great, not sure if you're a doctor/surgeon yourself but I imagine you'd get someone else to perform on your son if you decide to go ahead). The surgeon does everything they can to make the baby as comfortable as possible, and an experienced surgeon will do the procedure as swiftly as humanly possible to minimise discomfort. In a newborn, it is a minor surgical, mostly painfree (apart from administering the anaesthetic), procedure, it is not genital mutilation.