Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

your YOU'RE doh!

"your not jewish your dads a muzza",
"your not muslim coz ya mams a jew"
"and you aint cut so that proves it"

So if you have a son, he'll only get 2/3 the flak if he is cut ?

Sorry, he might get jibes from both religious groups because of a choice you (jointly) made to marry, but is it really likely that whether he is or is not circumcised is going to reduce the level of insults ? How often will other boys take notice ? OK, in secondary school after sports in the showers it might be spotted but I'd hope most lads have adequate privacy in school toilets these days!

You've chosen not to stick with religious tradition by marrying. He'll get flak for that.

Why put him through an unnecessary procedure when as a Briton in 2011 he would not be expected to be circumcised...

zlaya wrote "I still think this is not a genuine op, might very well be some sort of research"

LOL. If anyone searched for threads regarding circumcision, I bet they will find at least 3 in the last 6-9 months. Any "researcher" should find plenty of material and links, plus an overwhelming "No, don't do it" view.

I think it's probably that way because the majority of British men are not and have not been circumcised, plus the 'how can you deliberately cut a piece from a newborn baby?" aspect.

zlaya you sound like my partners father. ever since we had an argument about Israel i actually make sure i never turn my back to him in case he tries to bump me off! people are free to debate whatever they wish, insiders, outsiders or best of all a cross section of everyone. and i agree with the poster above whom tiredness prevents me from looking up the name of that said a web forum is the great place to debate this kind of issue.

pelvicfloor my folks don't know about the whisky and even if they did i think they'd rather i give up the wife over the whisky. both of them are keepers and only one of them needs to be in moderation.

shower, shave and summat else beginning with S... then t'bed for some sleepy sleeps. there are some other people i wanted to respond to but so tired itl' lhave to wait.

Useless nope, you've hardly started.

When you have children the complications begin.

Having children is a far bigger step than getting married. As this is your first child you really dont know realise the change yet. Children change everything in your life from your garden to your fridge.

Your parents, your wife's parents should will become less important in your lives. This is right and proper. Your focus changes from the past (parents) to the future (your child/ren). At this time you should will have no difficulty in doing the right thing and letting your child decide which if any religion to follow.

This is all to come and right now I guess you cant see this.

I've just been thinking about all the stuff i keep hidden from my folks and why i choose to hide them. I only told them DW was Jewish when i knew i was going to marry her. hell they only got to meet her after we were engaged... i wondered whether i could just sit down one day and just tell them.... then it hit me that this would be a really good way of bumping them off without ending up in jail. spill the beans all over and watch as they both have massive coronaries... what's that you say officer? nooo! they were like that when i found them.... :)

Gnome has wonderful advice.

Especially

*you both havent made the hugely maturing step of becoming parents. When this happens you both should be making a huge step away from the writ of your parents - this is one of the big signs to your parents that you are grown ups and making your own decisions.

As parents you will be making huge numbers of decisions which your parents will disapprove of so you might as well get used to it now!

You are in the perfect position to say to your respective parents that given your child is of a shared heritage you will be leaving all religious decisions until he/she is of an age to make those decisions for him/herself.

Both of your parents will disapprove. They will also disapprove of the way you hold your child; feed your child; how, when and where your child sleeps etc etc etc.

What you have to learn is to nod and smile, nod and smile. Then, when they leave you shut the door behind them and carry on doing the right thing by your child.

Your job as parents is to protect your child from the people who will do him or her harm. Often the people who do most harm are the people who claim they are doing it for the good of the child. Dont fail your child.*

Re read this, because it is wise.

how is it possible to be this tired and not be able to sleep? perhaps it's my conscience giving me a mental kicking. i know many of you have said i need to simply upset my folks if that's what it takes but honestly i feel like i upset them enough as it is and if you could onlly meet them you would understand why i prefer to either lie or sidestep issues with them. standing up to them makes no difference. reasoning or debating with them has a similar effect and pleading with them has only limited success.

i appreciate what gnomedeplume is saying (although the asian in me rejects the idea that my folks will become less important to me) but i think right now i'm going to stick to my guns here unless DW has a change of heart. this is something we will need to appose together or not at all i'm afraid. methinks the sweet relief of sleep is on it's way again. sleeepy sleeps. goodmorning/night everyone.

maybe i do need to grow up a little. perhaps i have overestimated my own maturity. you should see what i was like just a few years ago....

YANBU and you are clear about why you are not happy with the idea.
Basic reason not to do it is because once it's done, it can't be undone. If you wait until your son is a bit older at least he can have a say.
I personally hate things being done just because "it's the done thing" and I am not convinced about the health benefits.
Maybe your wife should watch a few babies having it done before she decides - I have heard that it's more painful than people imagine.
Also I would get your doctor's views - if they don't recommend it, that should sway the issue.

appose? oppose mustgotosleepmustgotosleepmustgotosleep

You can't go through life doing the wrong thing out of fear of upsetting someone who is wrong.

Wait 'til the boy's old enough to choose for himself.

If that upsets some people, that's up to them. They have a right to an opinion - even if it means they are wrong and get upset. But, hey, that happens in life.

Indeed MrsBethel

Useless have you told your parents that you are thinking of getting any future son circumcised in a Jewish ceremony? If yes what was their reaction? If not, why not and how do you think they will react?

"You can't go through life doing the wrong thing out of fear of upsetting someone who is wrong."

Great line!

network its not so much the insults from outside as it is attitudes towards potential son from both sets of grandparents and others fromm inside the family. like you said kids from school etc will have limited opportunity to see the little soldier. i guess we don't want to expose our child to our folks sometimes vitriolic crap. we don't want something like this to effect our parents attitude towards our DC.

badbagel nope they think it'll get done just before puberty a la islamic tradition. how would they react? well if they knew it was done in the judaic tradition or even a semi judaic tradition, i think my mum would threaten to disown me. not that she actually would she would just scream about it and how i'd made her grandmother to a jew! sometimes i don't know wether to laugh or cry. she's already done this once when she met DW:

"so you are marrying Jew?! your children will be the Jew no?"
"not really mum"
"don't you lie to your mother, you think i'm stupid?"
"no mum"
"she is jew, her children will be jew, you think it matters what you are?"
"please mum try to understand we're not doing this to upset you..."

at this point she turns to profanities and her broken english is replaced by a fluent mix of punjabi, hindi, and bangla punctuated by bits of broken english when she wants my partner (still in the room) to hear what she has to say.

we both took this for over 90mins before i pulled us both out of there. it took months to get my mother to agree to treat my wife with any level of dignity. her father was just the same if not worse. shit my lunch is over gotta run.

hope everyone is having a good day. byeee!

useless just a thought which may give power to your and your wife's elbow. In my experience children are a wonderful excuse for doing exactly what you (the parents) want. You can use that to buy you both time after your child is born.

Is this your parents first grandchild?

Whatever you do, your mother and your FiL will not approve. You know what though? It actually wont matter anything like as much to you both as you think.

When your child is born you should will turn your focus from your parents to your child. Your parents become more peripheral. It doesnt mean that they arent important just not at the front of your mind. Your child's less critical approval will be far more important to you.

I am wondering whether your DW maybe feels more Jewish than she thought and even would like to, Useless?
Becoming a mother does funny things to ones sense of self, where one comes from and where one (in the shape of a child) is going IYKWIM.

Also, I think you should thank your Lucky Star or whoever you chose to thank that you are of Asian/South Asian descent: imagine you were of Middle Eastern descent and in love with/married to a Jewish woman. I think your difficulties would be even bigger.

And yes, being a parent yourself gives you licence to say to your own parents "Thanks for the advice. We have thought about it and going to do XYZ" .
My own mother has never really 'forgiven' my DH to have married me and us therefore living several hundred miles away from them. Ever since we had children she worships the ground he treads on - v irritating to me sometimes .

Useless - I was just telling you what your relationship sounds like from your posts. It is obviously up to you to work out whether that is because your relationship is actually like that or not.

Yes I strongly disagree with you, but I am not "mad at you". I find you a bit pathetic, but I don't have to spend my life with you, so that doesn't really matter. I am sad for your future children.

thank you breathslowly very charitable of you.

pacificDogwood She and I both could easily be described as agnostic but i do think we both try to hold on to the things that make us different (from each other and everyone else) i guess these things just form an important part of identity. I do thank my lucky stars, I've overheard FIL refer to me as 'that arab' before (whilst DW and FIL were sparring) but it would be way worse if i actually was an arab. My mum once addressed DW as a whore in four different languages and a torrent of other abuse . I was so enraged i didn't speak to her for nearly a year. she still hasn't hasn't apologised for that.

GnomeDePlume this is the first grandchild for both our folks. they try and fail to conceal their genuine enthusiasm for the forthcoming arrival. infact ever since DW started to show everyone has been (if not nicer) a lot less hateful. my greatest hope is that the birth of our first child will be accompanied by mutual resolution of our issues in the face of what is truly important. I hope but do not expect. It would be fantastic if we could have some level of understanding between them. fantastic in every sense of the word. right now they simply ignore each other as best they can (which works out okay i guess)

massive headache.

early night.

bye everyone.

Useless - hope you get a good nights sleep tonight. You need a night off from all this worrying.

Wow Useless it really is a no win situation isn't it. You have my sympathies.

But I am surprised that your wife insist on a judaic ceremony knowing what the fall out with your family will be. I just hope it is not done in spite of your family, consciously or unconsciously.

Have a good nights rest :)

"that arab" "DW as a whore in four different languages ... still hasn't apologised for that"

Under the circumstances, I don't see why you care what the GPs think.

I would hate for you to have a son and him be circumcised when even doing that is going to upset one or other party because it will be done at the wrong time under the wrong religious beliefs - for heaven's sake, they don't seem willing to accept your marriage so why accept anything they say ?

While family needs to be respected, and traditions and relgious cultures can benefit people, such dogmatic views and 'stuck in a rut' opinions are no way to treat children in 2011. You each have had respect for your elders, but when they sink to name calling and have such outright hatred, they no longer deserve your respect, especially as they fail to respect your marriage and family unit as standing separate with clearly some common ground but differences too.

Tell them you will be bringing up your children your way, where they don't have to follow either religion and will be allowed to choose later, and that if they (as grandparents) expect to see their grandchildren at all then not a single abusive comment is to be made about anyone in your family unit. You need to think of each other, and your child(ren) from now on.

The examples on each side have been pretty awful and you need to give them both a short sharp shock. Be strong, the pair of you. You had to be to decide to get married, and if your parents are going to keep niggling at you, life as a family will never be much fun. Tell them to either stop their demands and allow you to bring up your child(ren) your way, or you will do it anyway and they will never be welcome in future as they have an impossible attitude and now you're married, you are finding your own way to go forward.

NWG - it's not the OP who cares what the grandparents-to-be think, it's his DW.

I think it is pretty clear the the OP is against the idea of the circumcision and is only going along with it because his DW has too much residual guilt not to. He doesn't want to fight with her, she doesn't want to cause her DPs any more grief than she already has.

I'm still pinning my hopes on her changing her mind when she holds a brand spanky new baby in her arms (if it's a boy) - I know I had real troubles with the idea of doing anything unnecessary to him (although he got his shot of Vitamin K all right, having worked in haematology I wasn't taking any chances that he wasn't clotting well!) so fingers crossed.

Yes, appreciate DW is stuck under the thumb of family / religion / tradition but both showed willingness to reject 'the rules' to get married and even if it's only one set of GP ruling their lives that'd be bad (indeed, worse than both attempting it, cos the other GPs would be seeing it happen while their opinions being ignored).

Enough of rift to be able to lay down ultimatum to both so treat them equally 'disrespectfully' if that's how it is seen, but need to stand up for each other and say NO to GPs.

Thumbwitch was your dh raised in the US? Just interested as circumcision isn't the done thing in Ireland and I have never heard that our grandfathers were traditionally circumcised either. Although, if they were, I'm sure no-one would have talked about it!

Useless that this is the first Grandchild all round is excellent news as no precedents have been set.

Any road up, once the baby arrives all conversations with your respective parents will tend to go something like this:

You/Wife - Hi Mum/Dad/MiL/FiL good to hear you
Mum/Dad etc - Have you arranged £$%&?
You/Wife - I'm sorry I didnt get the last bit, the baby is crying/laughing/about to roll off the bed.
Mum/Dad etc - I said, did you arrange £%&(?
You/Wife - Sorry! What was that? The baby has just rolled/sat up/been sick. Look, I need to go and sort this out, can I call you back when things are a bit quieter in 18 years time

enjoy!