Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

wow useless that seems really hard your family would really be like that to your children?

"okay still here. what i am afraid of is... which will hurt more. a quick operaation as a child or repeatedly being made to feel like an outsider by members of your extended family on both sides. don't forget that we shall have little control over what is said to them in private or what they may overhear others talking about. "your not jewish your dads a muzza"," your not muslim coz ya mams a jew" "and you aint cut so that proves it" these are the words that frighten me so much. these things are inextricably linked to identity and will undoubtedly affect things like self esteem, and simply knowing who and what he is. god i really hope we have a girl"

Blimey!!

I see what you mean.

We're talking something else now though aren't we.

So the only solution then to stop the anticipated bullying would be circumcision?

Child abuse and nothing more.

Any culture that is so obsessed about children genitals is deeply unhealthy.

My ds had to be circumcised last year for medical reasons - if I had any choice in the matter I wouldn't have gone ahead with it. He got an infection and had 6 weeks of being really ill and a number of emergency dashes to the hospital. It was utter hell

I just can't understand why anyone would do this unless it was necessary.

OP, this is one of many struggles you'll go through as being part of a mixed marriage. Mine is much less complex than yours, at the very least, we're both Christians (or at least I follow that train, just not as diligently as my DP).

When my DD was born, we should have had her ears pierced as its part of my DP's culture, baby girls have their ears pierced, boys are cut. I just couldn't, it was for vanity in my eyes and to cause pain for purely cosmetic reasons seemed silly. She was my firstborn and I was hugely protective. Now I wish I had done it, she's going to want to have it done when she gets to school anyway and I would have been able to keep it clean alot easier with a baby than with a school-age child. My DP was willing to compromise on this, ear-piercing is not as important as circumcision. But our son being circumcised? Well he won't be a Benin man like his dad without it! And it was deeply important to my DP, even though not religious, maybe on a spiritual level as it was like a link to his home country, he felt quite emotional.

You worry about religious taunts towards your future children, I worry about racial taunts, my daughter is only 3 at the moment and we've moved from Manchester to Essex, a very white part of the country. I've been able to protect her so far so when she goes to Primary school, it'll be hard for me, I hope she fits in well. If not, we'll head back up north! Good luck to you OP. Love will prevail!

"I just can't understand why anyone would do this unless it was necessary."

If your parents and family will go on to make your life a misery if you don't conform, and if your child's peers continue the sniping and bullying - I can understand that.

I'd still like to think the buck would stop with me.

somethingwitty i would have hoped sincerely that someone with your screen name could come up with something more witty? animation "and it's a bit worrying to think you have to hurt your child, and put them through this procedure in order to keep your parents happy - so that they don't ostracize you and your child" if i wanted to keep my parents happy i would not have married a Jew. have you considered the wider Muslim/Jewish community? random Jews or Muslims at school, at work, wherever.

You should try being a minority group someplace. cousins, random Jews or Muslims. i can't control the behavior of others in our respective communities anymore than i can prevent people on this thread failing to understand the point of view of others who disagree with them. i got grief as a kid, it hurt. they'll get grief, it'll hurt. I'm trying to work a compromise or plan of action in a near impossible situation so i'd appreciate it if you'd not make out like i'm out for myself in this. thanks.

i'm knee deep in shit and scratching around for an escape route. to everyone on here with a strong point of view, some of you need to exercise a little more decorum and use the language you employ to win influence with those that disagree. forums are not just for airing your own strongly held beliefs, they are also for discussing your views in a way that will reach out to others. not simply label something child abuse or call it genital mutilation and then sit back and feel smug about it. for fucks sake we're in a whole pile of crap here and some of you aren't helping. i'm actually shaking with rage at how little regard some of you have for the feelings of others. i cant belief i'm wasting my break on this. i'm sure you are all very good people and well intentioned but it would be lovely to have this discussion without finger pointing, wagging, accusations, and inflammatory language. i suppose i was warned this would happen. please feel free to fight among yourselves if you want but broadcasting opinion simply to feel smug will get you nowhere with me or anyone else trying to work things out for themselves. i know teenagers that could debate better than some of the stuff i've seen here.

Something, I know this is AIBU, but you need to tread with a bit more care, on several levels. I know quite a few Voodoo practitioners, they are lovely, and very good to their kids....

I take your point about the views of both extended families and not wanting your (unborn) DC to be alienated from them.

My family are churchgoing protestants and for my father in particular it was important that our children would be christended.
My DH is a total heathen (his words, not mine ) and I have not attended church in many years. I find myself going from agnostic views to being more and more atheist. So, none of our 4 DSs were babtised. There was discussion with my family, my dad was not particularly happy, but preferred this to just a 'show' to keep him happy.
My youngest is now 17 months and it didn't even come up since he was born.

I think you have to start as you mean to go on with your respective families. If this child is a girl, the discussion may be necessary in the future should you wish to have further children.
I cannot get my head around why a loving family would insist on an outward sign of 'belonging' when it might be quite clear that neither you nor your DW practice your respective religions. Do you think your families will expect your children to be more involved in their religion/s??

Re the whole cultural/teasing thing: I think that is always a challenge for dual heritage children and there is no pat answer, is there? (Any tips on how I can explain Nazism/the Holocaust/Germany's role in 2 WWs to my lot when the questions come ?)

I think circumsising a baby simply takes the choice to do it or not away from an individual. Why on earth would anybody think it hurt a baby more or less than any other person?? If done well, of course there is minimal discomfort - that is true for infants, older children and adults.
The foreskin is most definetely NOT an unnecessary bit of kit - in fact, forcing it back in order to remove it on a baby could arguably be seen as more traumatic than in an older child/adult in whom the foreskin is easily retracted.

There has been lots of food for thought on this thread, I am sure.
How you approach this ultimately is of course up to you.

I agree, phrases like 'genital mutilation' are emotive, but that does not make them wrong IMO..... Would your wife really be offended and your discussion with her compromised if she read others using the phrase?? You can always copy+paste some of the thread .

What strikes me about cultures that will coerce and bully parents if they don't conform to chop off babies forskin, is how very controlling they are.

Although circumcision doesn't seem to in the child's best interest medically - it's NOT healthier and it's NOT more hygenic - it is still going on - to control.

That's not right.

When I answered earlier I didn't like to comment on the circumcision part of what the OP's mulling over, of course I have my personal opinion that I wouldn't do it to my child, but that's not at the centre of the OPs dilemma.

Whether posters agree with circumcision or not is irrelevant to the situation because it's about what the OP and his DW feel about it and how they can start to communicate and come to a compromise.

Unless this is just an exercise in wind up, the OP and his DW have very real emotions about why they do or don't want to have the procedure done, and the OP just seems to be trying to sort out which consequences would be best/least for their unborn child.

Not agreeing with it shouldn't equal brushing off the OP and his DWs feelings as inconsequential, those feelings are there even though not tangible.

And it's those feelings the thread's about, not about one 'side' or the others opinion being right.

(although saying that I think the OP should follow his own advice when he says 'yeah Queenie is my choice. it's old skool english and a massive two fingers to both our respective backgrounds .... teehee.' and to just make it a decision between him and his wife about their child, even though that goes against what I said about brushing off the reality of how important wider family members can be)

for the record i don't think that circumcision is the answer. i don't want my children to go through that. but i want to protect them from so many things. i didn't stop to think i might have to pick and choose. its scary so i understand my wifes POV, that doesn't make me a bad person, just a good husband. the truth is i don't know exactly how it will be for them. i'm second guessing almost everything. my wife and i we get on marvelously. we've got through enough bullshit just to be together. i'm certain we'll get through this too, it's just bloody frightening thats all. ummm i'm sorry about my little outburst. ahem, bad day at the office but thats no excuse. i'm logging off now for the rest of the day.

Voodoo threat?

If they are good to their kids then they are progressive voodoo practitioners:)

'i know teenagers that could debate better than some of the stuff i've seen here.'

I don't think trying to dismiss posters opinions (and they're entitled to hold strong views) as immature is going to encourage any 'decorum' OP, or sniping at SomethingWitty.

Nobody has been offensive in the way they've posted, you admitted you knew it'd be contentious, you have to accept people may use what you call 'inflammatory language'.

unless no one is trying to upset you pre se, i am surprised at your strong reaction. this is aibu it is not an overly supportive place more of a this is the situation aibu? and people say yes or no and give there reasons for thinking it. there are better places on mumsnet were you may get more supportive and less aggressive stances you can get your thread moved or deleted.
in the same vain you come on to a public forum to discuss an emotive subject people are bound to get riled up and mostly forget that there is an op behind the topic who has an actual problem.
i would say try to take it in the context it is meant.

AgentZigzag - the OP is very clear that the pressure to circumcise comes from the family. This is not an informative discussion between man and wife about what's best for the baby. Their discussioin is basically about coercion - do they allow themselves to be coerced or not.

was suppose to say useless

"I just can't understand why anyone would do this unless it was necessary."
"If your parents and family will go on to make your life a misery if you don't conform, and if your child's peers continue the sniping and bullying - I can understand that".

But, if everyone went 'down the easy path', instead of doing what was right for them, then there would never have been a mixed marriage and these choices wouldn't have to be made.

OP you just need to way up the pros and cons based on what is important in your life and your DC's lives, taking into account what you believe in, then decide.

Useless - just seen your thread where you're a bit annoyed - generally. Did I understand you right when you said you were worried about being ostracised if you didn't confirm to circumcision - by the extended family, and also worried about potential teasing?

I really dont get why it is done for religious reasons. Isnt God (of whichever faith) supposed to be infallible? Doesnt chopping bits off your body imply that God got a bit wrong? If God has got something wrong then God isnt infallible. Isnt suggesting that God got something wrong blasphemy?

Which is the worse blasphemy?

• going against what is only fallible man's interpretation of what God wants
• going against an already perfect design and is the embodiment of what God wants.

BTW DH was circumcised for medical reasons. DS wasnt. At no stage has DS ever asked why his penis looks different. That is a non argument to use IMO.

There is the other option of not doing and just not mentioning it to anyone. Just make sure your DS dosen't go flapping his penis around in mixed company and everyone will be happy.

"But, if everyone went 'down the easy path', instead of doing what was right for them, then there would never have been a mixed marriage and these choices wouldn't have to be made."

Birdsgottafly - completely agree.

It must take some guts though to break free and live your own life I should imagine.

Even if you have no contact with your wider family Animation, it's not possible to tease apart your family from yourself, they're so ingrained that to think you can disregard the influence they can have on a person is unrealistic.

But if the OP and his DW can identify which parts of the issues surrounding going down this route (family/future consequences/pain to the child/religious choices) are most important to both of them and then make a decision based on that, that has to be a better route than saying how the OPs wife feels about it isn't valid because it's just based on cercion.