Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

Circumcision just seems a bit weird to me, but I admit I am neither Jewish nor Muslim and neither is my partner. We have 3 boys and another on the way, none of them are circumcised, and tbh it was never even spoken about by any medical professional in any pregnancy.

I think the health reasons for doing it are bullshit - if a man is hygienic and uses protection then they are null and void as far as I am concerned. The religious aspects I think are worth considering - for you and your wife anyway.

I can't see any justification for cutting healthy tissue off a baby. You are making a decision for him that he will never be able to reverse, if you leave him alone he can choose to have it done, if and when he ever feels the need. I don't think any parent has the right to remove bits of their child's body for anything but the most pressing health reasons and, even then, I would expect parents to discuss it, not just assume that was what they both wanted.

I find it even stranger in your circumstances because you are agreeing to a very public declaration that your (hypothetical) DS is Jewish, I would have thought just leaving him alone (even if just for an unspecified future date) would be less likely to alienate his Muslim grandparents.

I can't understand where your DW is coming from in wanting this done but I hope you can work out a solution which makes everyone happy. Your DS is the most important person in all of this and the decision should be based on his happiness, health and wellbeing, not yours, your DW's or any of the rest of his extended family.

Apologies again for random outburst. It's difficult not to take it a little personally when people are describing the actions of ones parents as akin to child abuse and genital mutilation. Things that may seem strange to your eyes are not so to ours. It is not right nor fair to label me a victim or my parents the perpetrators of abuse based purely on an external POV. abuse is all about context.

what happened to me, happens to countless Muslim and Jewish boys in the security of the family unit and the context of a religious custom in order to initiate and welcome us into the fold. Our parents believe and this is why their actions cannot be classed as abuse. I'm sure someone here could channel Dawkins and make a remark about the absurdity of it all and i'd have to agree. however sometimes life is just absurd. I do not feel abused and i refuse to be made to feel like a victim those who do not know me. Just because something is at odds with ones own sensibility does not mean it is wrong, dirty or abusive.

without knowing the context of these acts it is impossible to really understand them and therefore impossible to judge what is happening. that i do not wish to do the same to my child does not reflect judgment upon my parents rather it reflects my own convictions which sadly for our folks no longer resemble their own. does any of this make sense? Tomorrow I'm going to discuss this all with her. she is the most patient glorious wonder of a human being i have ever come across. not a day goes by that i don't marvel at my good fortune. that's what i shall bear in mind as she tears me limb from limb.

If it makes any of you feel better, i have trouble understanding all this crap myself. but some things are clear (at least from where i stand) our folks love us and though they have some strange ideas, they are united in the common wish to see as do well. (even if that's the only thing that unites them.) I'll let everyone know how it goes. Not sure who it was that suggested a scan to determine sex... i may try and push that agenda, at the very least we'll know what we're dealing with. I'll spend some of tonight digesting what has gone down on this thread as i'm sure some of you have insights which may prove useful yet.

Goodnight everyone.

No no no no no!! You do not have the right to allow you prospective son to have his foreskin removed!

You do not practice your religion and neither does your wife - neither of you are devout - neither of you made a covenant with God so why should your baby son suffer the pain of a circumision to please your families - I would tell both families to farque orf and leave your child to make the decision when he is old enough to make up his own mind ....and which religion he chooses to follow - if any

He might quite like to have an intact penis! I know I would freak if my parents had made a religious/cultural decision on my behalf as a baby that may have an physical effect on me as an adult

On the contrary InTheNightKitchen, we were made to believe otherwise,
DS at the age of four had to be done, due to his skin not growing in sync with his penis.
His suffered countless throat, and tip of the penis infections, it it finally stopped, when he was circumcised.
On the good recommendation of GP, DS was seen by one of the top urologists at Royal Free Hospital in London, who strongly recommended that DS is done A.S.A.P against our very strong protests.
DS is 16 now, with no medical issues, no issues at all otherwise, and yes since he was done he became a cleaner, and most importantly healthier.
In a very rear cases such as our DS it is unavoidable, and today I am glad we did it, but of course OP it is a decision only you can make together with your partner.
Whatever reasons you might have for or against, they should be respected.
In our case it certainly wasn't "mutilation", nor is this practice in our religion, it was just something that had to be done.

hello everyone. DW and I slugged this out last night before putting it and ourselves to bed shortly after. The results are as follows.... she is not massively keen on the idea of either infant or juvenile circumcision, but she still wants prospective DS to be done at 8 days as per Judaic custom. the rest of the discussion went down thus:

Our DS will be born into two families still reeling from the upheavals of marrying out.
We must do everything we can to make certain that DS is accepted as fully as possible into both our families. She feels emotional pain and some level of guilt about what our getting married has done to her father and wants to do everything she can to make us work whilst trying to repair some of the damage caused.

Future issues for us and our child if we don't go ahead are bound to come to the fore. though we may be adequately equipped to handle these, our DS will have little hope of defending himself against some random person or extended family member saying or doing something hurtful. she also thinks that issues from external (eg school kids etc) for being cut are likely to be easier for DS than internal one for not being cut.

when i told her that i couldn't understand why we would choose to put him through this. She said she thought my being done at twelve maybe the source of my discomfort

Useless - I am glad that you have had The Chat and some form of resolution has been reached. I hope that you have a beautiful baby in a few months' time and that he/she is never exposed to any exclusionist behaviour from either of your families.

One final point (not designed to give you any kind of further upset but just to say) - your DW may yet change her mind - giving birth does the weirdest things to some people! I, for e.g., was set to be the strictest, hard-core parent who didn't give in to any manipulation by the baby - the minute he was out I turned into a pile of mother-goo and didn't let him leave my side. Co-slept with him for nearly 6m (after swearing blind he would go straight into his own cot). My friends were truly gobsmacked at my transformation.

I still think your son will lose more than he will gain by being circumcised. Since the issues seem to be mainly speculative about his future social interactions, could you wait until he is born and see if either of your parents bring it up. They may not be bothered and you will have done it for nothing.

I think you've probably achieved the best outcome possible for both of you. You said you'd capitulate and you did. You both seem happy with that at present, so all to the good. I still don't profess to understand where all the agonising came from though, really. You knew this was what would happen - your feelings against circumcision are not as strong as her feeling for. And for what it's worth, your wife probably has the right idea that at least the decision for your children in the future should be that much easier.

Kept in the dark and fed on manure, they will be the happiest mushrooms on the farm.

Yes indeed-y. It's how religions the world over treat and keep their followers. I will always think circumcision for religious reasons is in fact genital mutliation, and that any 'religion' that practices it is barbaric, but then I'm about as far along the complete Dawkins atheist line as you can get. It is abuse, just because it's within the confines of a family doesn't excuse it or change what it is...

carnival much as i would like to tell our folks to farque orf (as you so comically put it) the decision has been made. I would however say this:

Physical pain can be bad but emotional and psychological pain can be orders of magnitude worse. in this situation preventing one would leave DS open to another.

You guys understand right? i'm doing this for my DW and to a certain extent, for my DS too. Non of it makes me giddy with happiness but very few things in life a black and white and this certainly wasn't

No we don't understand, but frankly we don't have to. You're just trying to salve your own conscience.

Tbh I think lots of things in life are actually black and white - a choice between two outcomes, perhaps. It's only all the self indulgent wrangling we all (and do I include myself in this) indulge in along the way that gets muddy grey.

'Then she kissed my cheek and told me that she'd take the burden of guilt for this.'

If my DH did this after I'd told him something that was important to me, I would think he was being a patronising twat and akin to telling me not to worry my pretty little head about it.

But then I don't know how you spoke to her or how your relationship works.

I suppose things might change after your baby is born (if it is a boy) thinking in advance of how things might be/feel after the birth is always different when you have your newborn baby in your arms.

Oh yes and were gonna go get a scan to determine the sec of DC as soon as possible! this was one of the few concessions i was able to hustle up. not sure when but shall let people know. woooohooooo!

sparkle

"No we don't understand, but frankly we don't have to. You're just trying to salve your own conscience."

Obviously approaching from the other side of the argument but this is exactly the sort of attitude that got DW and I into this fine mess in the first instance. You and our folks should get together and have a party or summat.

OP, will your family be happy if your DS is circumcised in a Jewish ritual or will this open a new can of worms?

Could you speak with a Rabbi and Imam to get a clearer view of what the circumcision entails (not the physical aspect but the religious aspect) and how that fits in with the judeo/muslim upbringing.

sorry Sparkle that was supposed to be a jokey thing rather than insulting. only a couple more hours at the grind stone and i get to go home to my beautiful wife. we are going to see Philip Massinger's a city madam tonight and a midsummer nights dream in London on Wednesday. it's the second time we'll be going to see midsummer nights dream (RSC LONDON) it is hugely funny and not at all a bore. we both highly recommend

Have dipped in and out of this thread, but not commented so far.

You really did roll over Useless. Your wife basically dismissed your very real and valid concerns with a pat on the head.

Part of her argument was that it will be easier for your child to deal with external criticism than internal criticism. The thing is, if you are related to the kind of people who would hold it against a child that he isn't circumcised, then they are also the sort of people who will hold it against him that he is the child of a mixed marriage. I don't get the impression that your families are the sort of people who would do that to a child. You shouldn't do this out of fear of the reactions of your extended families. They shouldn't factor at all into what you decide for your baby.

Your child is always going to stand out a bit, because of the life choices you and his mother have made. That's just the way it is, so you might as well go the whole way and make decisions for your child based on what the two of you actually believe in rather than what your parents believe in.

I don't think it's right to do this as a way of making things up to your parents. When you become a parent, your first obligation is to do the best for your child. Everything else is secondary.

not even a couple of hours! just 30 mins before i'm free of the tyranny that is this deesk!

Karma do you think that the tendency for people to look only at their responsibility to their children and not so much their responsibilities as children is the reason why so many older people in this and other countries wind up dying alone or living in nursing homes?

sorry i'm side-stepping then projecting and transfering. not a good way to deal with arguments one finds challenging. like i said before, i don't like it, but it is what is best for us as a unit just now. might we regret this? possibly, are we still going ahead? well, yeah.

Strictlovingmum , am curious as to why your DS' tight foreskin would cause throat infections!? Not a sarcastic question, genuinely interested...

karma you've done me the huge favour of keeping me on here long enough to get me in (minor) trouble and sent home early! woooohoooo! bye guys! i'll catvch up with y'all after the shooooooww
!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear UFHS, pardon me if this is a little forward, I have been following this thread with a interest and have posted with our experience of circumcision, but let my ask you a question:
How do you feel about yourself being done?
Have you always been very aware of the fact you are different down there?
How did the circumcision affect you adult, sexual life, if it did at all?
Have you ever come across any negativity, regarding you "down there" status, from peers in younger years or partners in adult single life?

Please don't think of me being rude, that is not my intention.

I feel very sad about the way this thread has gone. You have basically capitulated to avoid conflict and your child will suffer inevitable pain and possibly complications from unnecessary surgery as a result. I hope the baby is a girl.