to think that wheelchairs should be priority on buses?

[mamadivazback]

My DS and I were on the bus today coming home from the town when I noticed a woman I vaguely know to speak to in the queue behind about 8 people with her 6YO DD who is in a narrow childs wheelchair and her DP with 2 year old son in small stroller so we waved, as you do.

Now the bus was about half full and 2 girls got on with their children in pushchairs, one with a very large Emmaljunga type and the other with a stroller and both children were happily sitting up by themselves and looked to be about 18 months old but neither thought to fold their pushchair when the lady tried to get her DD on, she had taken her DS out so she could fold pushchair and all sit together but the bus driver told her she could not get on as there were already 2 pushchairs onboard so she had to wait behind in the rain for the next bus.

I know pushchairs are entitled to use the bus but I thought you had to fold them if a wheelchair user was getting on and was quite shocked when the bus driver refused her a ticket, I spoke to her later on and she said it has happened a few times and it's just bad luck but I really don't think it's fair.

Having said that, wheelchair services told me ds2's buggy folded easily!

BunnyWunny, I am glad to hear that your bus travel is conducted in civilised circles where 'everyone moves' for wheelchair users. In my neck of the woods it is by no means a given that people make space for disabled people like my DS. And by the way, I do not regard a grudging, two-inch shuffle of the buggy/trolley/suitcase as 'making space'.

It is very true that many people, probably the majority, are exceptionally considerate; however plenty of others are the precise opposite, and I am not prepared to rely on other people's sense of decency because the fact is that in too many cases it is just not there. A policy exists regarding wheelchair accommodation on buses and I want it enforced. I can assure you we have been left on the pavement many many times because of people refusing to fold their buggies etc and make way for us.

I hope that by the time my son is an adult, denying disabled people their right to a place in the world , ie denying them the freedom to go about their business and for reasonable adjustments to be made to enable them to do so, is regarded in much the same light as drink driving. We have had the debate on certain things (eg drink driving, sexism, discrimination against the disabled and restrictions on the freedoms everyone else enjoys) and established that they are wrong as we live in a civilised society. Can we move on now please? Oh and please let my son have the wheelchair space he is entitled to so that he can get on with his life. Or, for anyone who thinks it 'unfair' that he should be so 'privileged': go ahead and take up his space, leave him on the pavement because you consider your convenience to be more important than his needs. Then go home and see if you can look yourself in the mirror.

It separates easily into two parts, ellie; but it doesn't fold. So it's good for putting in a carboot, but not for a bus - because you'd end up having to hold the two separate (heavy) bits.

It's a lovely buggy for walking, but definitely not good for buses.

I have to just tell you that it was my one and only ebay purchase, bought off a very nice woman who had just had her first baby. Get this: she had bought a brand new Bugaboo and a brand new iCandy, just so she could test both and decide which one she liked best. Now, that has to be some kind of definition of disposable income . Meant a nice bargain for me, though.

Bloody hell kladdkaka

I'm interested in Riven's comments that London buses are better because drivers will make people fold their buggies. I have to say that I have never, ever seen anybody take exception to making way for a wheelchair user, so I am a bit at some of the posts on here. Clearly it is important that bus drivers 'set the tone' by policing those spaces a bit.

I got on a very crowded rush hour bus with my two dcs and a suitcase a few months back (I had left the buggy at home and had the toddler in a sling, before you ask ) and the bus driver left his cabin to ask somebody to give me a seat, which was really kind of him. It must help to have conductors, too, though I don't suppose there's many of those left.

mum0ftw0 I found it funny in a weird, twilight zone, sort of way. Particulary given my reason for being in London in the first place. I was there for a court hearing set up by the Equality and Human Rights Commission on account of not being able to access a public service (disability discrimination). :o

Kladdkaka, that is awful, but glad you can (sort of) laugh about it, all you can do really!

Pixel, in answer to your question about prams that dont fold, mine does fold but you have to remove the carrycot bit or seat first. So not ideal for a bus. This was purchased when we lived a 30 minute walk from the city centre and we do not have a car. It is a really good solid pram/puschair, therefore ideal for walking to and from the city, school run and over the local heath. At the time of purchasing, we were not aware that we would be moving out of the city due to circumstances beyond our control. We have actually recently purchased a buggy type which does fold but is not as easy to push or as cosy for DS2 but I shall be using this, should I, god forbid, have to get the bus from our new home, although after reading these posts I honestly would rather walk 7 miles.

Of course I would let a wheelchair user have my space if I had to use the big pushchair.

Hester how did the driver decide whom to ask, or was it just generally "Will someone give this lady a seat?"

This thread has the irresistible draw of a black hole. You know there is nothing in it but despair and gloom but you can't help coming back to it.

Do people really, truly think there is any comparison between the problems that an able-bodied mother and non-disabled child face in the early days of prams and nappy bags, and the permanent, daily, million and one difficulties that a wheelchair user has to overcome in order to simply participate in society at anything approaching a normal level? Really?

If so, then I am afraid that those people are simply so completely and utterly self-obsessed that I am surprised that they have even noticed that there is a world outside their own head.

Why, why, oh why is it so difficult to understand?

1. There are a huge number of prams for every wheelchair - a pram user might be inconvenienced once in a blue moon, but a wheelchair user would be inconvenienced (or completely denied access to public transport) every single day if not given absolute priority.

2. No-one is thrown off a bus. Pram users are asked to fold their prams. If they choose not to do so (and I count buying a non-folding pram as a permanent choice not to fold in any situation that arises) then they have no option but to leave the bus.

3. If there is no absolute priority rule, some of the comments on this thread demonstrate very, very clearly that there will be a thousand arguments available to anyone asked to fold their pram and the wheelchair user will never be confident that they can travel without refusal or at least argument. If there is an absolute priority then it is still open to a wheelchair user to decline the space if he or she chooses to do so.

I am pretty sure I have said this every time this thread has come up - Riven and 2shoes at least are probably bored of hearing it. I am an able-bodied adult with an able-bodied child. But I had a serious congenital birth defect on my foot and had a series of 14 operations between 6 hours old and 12 years old. I probably spent about 6-12 weeks in a wheelchair every year. My mother used to be reduced to tears on a regular basis trying to manage simple daily things. This was back when there were few adjustments for disability and wheelchairs were less useable. The only thing that got us through was that people were generally considerably more willing to put themselves out for others. When I was 5 my grandfather was crushed between his ship and pilot boat on the day he retired and was in a wheelchair for 4 years before he learned to walk again. My mum and gran often had 2 wheelchair users to manage between them. It was a bloody nightmare for them.

I was spectacularly lucky and now have no serious problems. I have a child and in the very early days occasionally used a pram. Yes, it is a pain in the arse (one of the reasons I abandoned it in favour of a sling) but it is absolutely nothing at all compared with being in a wheelchair or assisting a disabled child.

People can trot out philosphical arguments and "what ifs" until they are blue in the face but it won't change the fact that trying to suggest that simply being a mother with a child makes your "struggles" in any way comparable to those of a wheelchair user, just makes you look like an idiot.

Kladdkaka - it's an appalling tale but what are you expecting to be done? There cannot be a guarantee that a particular train will come in at a particular platform. And lifts break down. And need routine servicing.

Kungfupannda you are so, so right. It really is as simple as that - with some help and compassion from the non-wheelchair and non-buggy able-bodied and no-luggage passengers (regardless of gender) thrown in.

Do people really, truly think there is any comparison between the problems that an able-bodied mother and non-disabled child face in the early days of prams and nappy bags, and the permanent, daily, million and one difficulties that a wheelchair user has to overcome in order to simply participate in society at anything approaching a normal level? Really?

It's all part of (a fairly recent) attitude of "I have a baby, thus the world must now support me" sens eof entitlement that manifests itself in all sorts of ways.

It's just anither bluddy baby, humans have been popping 'em out for millenia without fuss.

I have found a lot of the problem lies in the fact wheelchairs are now made for comfort, ease of use, different terrains to allow disabled people to be included in all aspect of family life. Some also look more like 'buggies'. I'm thinking BUGs, active10, chunk type wheelchairs. People don't seem to want to think beyond the conventional wheelchair stereotype, and argue they are folding up their buggy for another.

I would personally like to see the wording changed to 'please reserve this space for wheelchair users and/ or disabled people.' That way everyone has a space on the bus if the space that fills their needs is free. Maybe there needs to be more use of under the bus storage - I always folded my pushchair and put it there (Spain) and there was never this problem. There was room for buggies/ prams that didn't fold to go underneath as well, and shopping bags. And people would help which made such a difference.

kungfupannda I havn't read all of this thread and I have no "axe to grind" as there is no one in my family or friends who has ever needed to use a wheelchair, but I think you have summed up so much of what I believe.

Whatmeworry This is also another of my beliefs; why do so many mothers think that the world owes them just because they have a baby?[confused

My DH and I were discussing the fact that it seems to us that the more that people have , the more they demand and believe it is their due - whether that be space on the bus for their "buggy" (or pantechnicon!) or that their children should be allowed to sit on a seat "because they are human beings too" regardless of who may have to stand - whether that be some one on crutches or some one elderly, frail, or just OLDER than the child. All these children now travel free in London and STILL it is not enough.

I am definitely turning into an old curmudgeon , but I don't care.

We weren't allowed to get on a near empty bus last week because a wheelchair user was on board, even though I was folding up our stroller - so maybe this was a misunderstanding on the bus driver's part? If the wheelchair looked like a regular, larger buggy maybe he thought it was a buggy?

Andrew I'm not expecting anything to be done. I was just illustrating the reality of travelling on public transport for wheelchair users for those who seem to think that struggling with a baby, pram and shopping are on a par.

Kladdkaka I entirely agree with you. Good luck.

Andrew, it was a general request. Though he was particularly eyeballing a large group of teenagers sitting on the front seats, and one of them did get up and offer me a seat. For which I thanked her very profusely.

I don't think public transport is well enough designed to accommodate all its different users Obviously wheelchair users should take priority but I think the whole space really needs a re think

It's against the Disability Discrimination Act. All bus drivers have to ask pushchair users to fold their pushchairs if a wheelchair user gets on. If they refuse he has to ask them to get off the bus. I think they are supposed to refuse to drive the bus any further until the pushchair user decides to either fold the pushchair or get off the bus. Tell your friend to ring the bus company and make a formal complaint that they are contravening the DDA.

A bit late now, nappyaddict with the splendid nickname, but in principle you are right. Whether there should then be an obligation on the unencumbered in turn to give their seats up - or an expectation that they will - is another question - I think the latter, obviously unenforceable, but that expectation should apply regardless of gender.