to think that wheelchairs should be priority on buses?

[mamadivazback]

My DS and I were on the bus today coming home from the town when I noticed a woman I vaguely know to speak to in the queue behind about 8 people with her 6YO DD who is in a narrow childs wheelchair and her DP with 2 year old son in small stroller so we waved, as you do.

Now the bus was about half full and 2 girls got on with their children in pushchairs, one with a very large Emmaljunga type and the other with a stroller and both children were happily sitting up by themselves and looked to be about 18 months old but neither thought to fold their pushchair when the lady tried to get her DD on, she had taken her DS out so she could fold pushchair and all sit together but the bus driver told her she could not get on as there were already 2 pushchairs onboard so she had to wait behind in the rain for the next bus.

I know pushchairs are entitled to use the bus but I thought you had to fold them if a wheelchair user was getting on and was quite shocked when the bus driver refused her a ticket, I spoke to her later on and she said it has happened a few times and it's just bad luck but I really don't think it's fair.

I reckon people who can afford nct can afford cars!

NCT do discounted rates! We paid £30 for our classes. We can't afford a car.

Probably Riven. I can afford neither.
Expecting the NHS to run the workshops might be a little precious though, even for me.

Maybe do it as part of nhs antenatal classes. I complained to the bus company once because the bus driver refused to let me on with ds2's sn buggy because there were prams already on the bus. Bus company said it was first come first served. DS2 will need a maclaren major or a wheelchair when he gets too big for his mainstream buggy and I'm hoping people's attitudes will have changed by then. Not holding my breath though.

I agree that it's hard for a new mum with PND/two little ones/heavily pregnant with toddler and I've been there. I think if other passengers were more considerate and offered to help and if drivers were a bit more patient and didn't just sit there and sigh then there would be more mums willing to fold their buggies.

Bus company said it was first come first served.

Well, elliejtiny, have you got a better idea?

Even if you designed buses on the assumption that the able-bodied and non-pregnant can stand - and that would only do for shortish journeys - there would be times (chucking-out at the infant schools, for example) when there were more buggie and prams than space for them. What other rule can the driver or the company apply?

The wheelchair space is required and will be law by 2016. So it is a wheelchair space.

works both ways though. I commute by bus, and take DS into nursery on teh way. it's a very busy bus route. I get so many dirty looks from commuters for daring to bring a buggy on the bus. It is a small one, and it does fold. But I don't fold it because actually a folded buggy plus a child plus a stack of bags takes more room than an unfolded buggy.

If a wheelchair user required the space i would have to get off, and this is the right thing to do. But most buggy using mums will also have felt the same sense of entitlement by able bodied adults that seem to have forgotten that once they were children too, and unless/until our society pays a decent wage to SAHPs then some parents will work and some of those will need to travel on busses with pushchairs.

And if you have paid for a ticket, you should be entitled to a refund if you need to get off for any reason. Less selfishness but also more common sense!

Sorry, MichaelaS, but you have confused me. If I am on the bus and have paid my fare I certainly have a "sense of entitlement": I am entitled to stay on until my destination - if I choose to stand for someone who needs my seat more than I do that is a matter of courtesy and not of right - and am entitled not to get off the bus for somebody else to get on; there is no balance between my needs and the other person's once I am on.

I have, in fact, got off early when I was not in a hurry, the weather was good, and I was not too far from where I intended to go. But nobody should have a sense of entitlement to think that I must. Do we disagree?

no, that's exactly what i'm saying. once you have paid you are entitled to be carried for the journey, it's the contract you enter into with the bus company as they accept your payment infact. so to expect someone (say with a buggy) to disembark then pay a second time because somebody else (say with a wheelchair) wants the space is really incorrect from a legal standpoint.

from a moral one and a stance of a bit of common courtesy, of course people should make room, pack down buggys where this would save space and even get off the bus. but i can't help a nagging feeling that this is positive discrimintation in some way? if an able bodied person can't fit on the bus because its already full then they get left at the stop and that's that. why is it a travesty if this happens to a disabled person?

just musing, not really sure if i'm being politically correct etc here. just seems odd to me. please correct me if i'm wrong!

Then fair enough. Let wheelchair spaces be only and forever for wheelchairs and ban buggies from using them at any time. Then you can travel if there is room for your buggy in the space left.
Rather like not being able to park in an emergency vehicle space. Or, indeed, a disabled car parking space.

but i'm still at a loss as to why the disabled traveller is more important than any other traveller, such as one in a buggy. yes everyone should budge up and allow more people on the bus if possible, but to throw one off so another can ride - how is that fair? aren't we just being nice to disabled travellers because of their disability (positive discrimination)? or to put it another way - why is it better to ask able bodied person A to wait in the rain for the next bus so that wheelchair user person B can ride? why do we consider this a morally superior position, and isn't that somehow patronising along the lines of "oh dear you're in a wheelchair, we must make your life easier for you you poor dear" rather than treating that wheelchair user as an equal person in all respects?

Please help me understand?

1, disabled people campaigned for those spaces
2, the disabled person and the pushchair person can both travel on the same bus if the pushciar folds. I am tired of saying that, how hard is it to understand? No one needs to get left behind
3, often there are hours between accessible buses. The pushchair person has way more choice, can just fold and get on the bus with steps. So people in wheelchairs have a lack of choice.
4, and why shouldnt disabled peoples lives be made easier. Its ten times harder being disabled and getting out and about than it is being a mum and baby. Who would resent anything that makes life a little easier?

MichaelaS I'd explain it like this. I use a wheelchair every day. I always will. I used to travel on buses twice a day. On average at least one bus a week would be unable to take me on, because it was too crowded, because the space was full of buggies, the ramp doesn't work, the driver doesn't know how to use it. So at least once a week, every week, all year, I was left sitting at bus stops, on my own, wondering if I'd belucky the next time. I was travelling to work, so to avoid being late I had to allow an extra half hour for each journey, and even then it wasn't enough.

As others have pointed out, people with buggies will only have them for a limited period. They also chose to have children, and chose to have buggies that do or don't fold. And chose whether or not to fold them. Buses were my only form of transport as underground and trains weren't accessible, so it already took me twice as long to get anywhere, and I couldn't chose not to take the wheelchair, or not to fold it, or to find another route.

I don't thinj it's unfair or patronising for others to try and make my life easier. I think it's recognition that I will have difficulty using public transport, and people are tryng to minimise that difficulty for me, and thank god they do, otherwise I would just have given up going out, going to work and ended up being miserable, unemployed and reliant on benefits.

Of course a disabled passenger is more entitled to a space designed for disabled people than a child in a buggy! Or an abled bodied person.

Christ on a bike how does it need explaining that a person in a wheelchair faces challenges getting around that you can only imagine? That the response of any normal compassionate person should in fact be "how can i make this person's life easier?"

Honestly, I despair that you need to ask the question.

thanks Riven

I agree with 2 if the pushchair isn't laden with other bags. IMHO sometimes a folded buggy takes more space when you add on the space the luggage takes on the floor too.

I hadn't considered 3, where I live all the busses are accessible, I completely agree with this. Not sure if 1 is really an argument, the fact that people campaign for something doesn't mean they necessarily have an ethical / moral right to it, simply that they want it and are motivated and organised.

I guess 4 is what i'm getting to - that basically the reason that people should get off if necessary is to ease the disabled person's life because generally their lives are harder than able bodied people's lives, i.e. a deliberate act of positive discrimination. I guess I assumed disabled people might not want to be patronised in that way - that the aim was a level playing field.

Just very interested - as a buggy user with a 2yo who is registered disabled I hit both sides of the argument. Right now we're lucky, my DS has outgrown the physical side of his disability and we are no longer lugging around heavy medical equipment so as far as busses go we're back to being a "regular" buggy user. But when we had the equipment there is no way that folding down would have saved space! :)

sorry, i honestly didn't mean to offend people. but when my DS had visible signs of disability, i.e. tubes on his face, I hated the idea that we would be given any advantage BECAUSE he is disabled rather than simply because he was in a buggy. I understand disabled people's lives are hard, i'm living it. I'm just genuinely curious whether others find this attitude difficult to receive too.

There was a time when a man would offer his seat to a woman simply because of her gender. Now that's less common, and sometimes seen as offensive, implying the woman needs help and is not an equal to the man. Personally my feelings about my DS's needs were similar. I stand corrected that others don't share that feeling though - sorry if I caused offence.

its not the same thing. I offer my seat to elderly people on the train not just because they are old, but because they are likely to have real physical needs that I do not have because of their age. A woman does not have any need over a man simply because she is a woman.

I am a disabled wheelchair user michaela, with a severely disabled child who is also in a wheelchair. I dont feel patronised if things make my life easier. Just relieved. Even getting out of the house is ten times harder now than before and I often stay inside for weeks.
As it is, we have to take 2 buses as theres only one wheelchair space. Last year when there was only one accessible bus an hour this was a total pain in the arse as you can imagine. Now theres one every 20 minutes. (with non accessible ones inbetween that most parents just fold for rather than wait. Cos they get a choice)

The wheelchair space isnt an advantage. Its a means to travel as wheelchairs rarely fold and means we have an equal ability to travel. Not a bloody advantage.

The fact is, it's not a Level playing field, literally and metaphorically! The wheelchair space is not an advantage, just a (baby) step towards equality.

I guess my attitude was based on two things which don't apply for older children or adults - the fact that DS's mobility needs didn't differ noticably from other babies the same age, i.e. buggy use, not able to walk is normal for a 1 year old, and also because he is not old enough to express his own thoughts and opinions so my views are mine alone, based on an instinct to protect him and not have him singled out as different when not absolutely necessary.

I'm glad people are prepared to make your life easier Riven when they can. I don't mean to say they shouldn't. The choice of bus thing is definitely something I hadn't considered, as I say where I am all the busses are accessible.

Siamo - that's exactly my point - we now consider that seats / space should be given up to those with a particular need, and that a man relinquishing a seat to a (healthy, not pregnant) woman is insulting. But why does a disabled traveller have more need of the space than any other passenger? One answer is that the disabled traveler might have fewer choices of other transport, or that not all busses are accessible.

Am feeling i'm just digging myself a bigger hole here.... perhaps its time i shut up!

Also interesting that you mention stuff. Although it doesn't sound like it, that's a choice too. There is literally no way I could do my monthly, even weekly shop on a bus, let alone take luggage!