to think that wheelchairs should be priority on buses?

[mamadivazback]

My DS and I were on the bus today coming home from the town when I noticed a woman I vaguely know to speak to in the queue behind about 8 people with her 6YO DD who is in a narrow childs wheelchair and her DP with 2 year old son in small stroller so we waved, as you do.

Now the bus was about half full and 2 girls got on with their children in pushchairs, one with a very large Emmaljunga type and the other with a stroller and both children were happily sitting up by themselves and looked to be about 18 months old but neither thought to fold their pushchair when the lady tried to get her DD on, she had taken her DS out so she could fold pushchair and all sit together but the bus driver told her she could not get on as there were already 2 pushchairs onboard so she had to wait behind in the rain for the next bus.

I know pushchairs are entitled to use the bus but I thought you had to fold them if a wheelchair user was getting on and was quite shocked when the bus driver refused her a ticket, I spoke to her later on and she said it has happened a few times and it's just bad luck but I really don't think it's fair.

I was on a bus today which had a wheelchair space and a buggy space - both clearly marked on the floor.

The Wheelchair bound passenger doesn't have the same options available to them, however you try to word it that is the case.
Putting the pram down and sitting with a toddler on your knee and shopping by your feet may not be ideal but it is possible. Wheelchair users don't have that option

I get what you are saying Michaela. Just because some disabled passengers don't find it patronising, doesn't mean that's the way every disabled passenger feels.

I'm 100% certain that the paraplegic scuba diving instructor I know would find it patronising, and would easily give up a space for a Mum struggling with a pushchair, simply because he would feel that she needed more. He is still very gentlemanly, a chair with wheels makes no difference to that.

You say that he is gentlemanly, isn't that patronising to the mother?!

I hate how being nice and common curtosey is seen as patronising by some. People really can't do right for doing wrong can they!! If they left someone struggling they would be insensitive, if they help they are patronising!

In exactly the same way that disabled passengers feel differently about whether they were being patronised, mothers and women will feel differently about that too.

Personally, as a woman and a mother, I wouldn't find it patronising at all, but I'm well aware that some other women and mothers might feel it was very patronising.

I don't feel bad accepting favours from wheelchair users at all, many of them have a voice equally as strong as mine, and I would assume that any person who offered to do me a favour was doing so out of their own free will. Wheelchair or not. People are allowed to look after eachother, being a wheelchair does not always mean that your needs are greater.

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry. But I got to the bit where people were saying it's hard to fold buggies etc and some people have to use them and not everyone can use a sling and it shouldn't be assumed that they can. Which of course is true.

But I would like to suggest that everyone has a sling under the buggy anyway - not for long term use or carrying kids long distance, which not everyone can do, but something you can pop them in to take them out of the equation when you're struggling with bags and buggies would be a good idea, I suggest. You'd only need to have them in it a few minutes whilst you stash everything and then go and sit down at the back.

Again I know not everyone can do this but it's a decent enough way to ease the struggle and allow everyone on I would have thought.

not patronising if its based on need, e.g. giving up seat to a heavily pregnant woman or an elderly person with a walking frame.

I would say it is patronising if its not needs based - e.g. giving a seat up to an able bodied woman because she is a woman. that's positive discrimination based on gender and I feel its patronising.

"I certainly couldn't decide to take hope a table, for example, and demand space in the wheelchair (or buggy) space."

I once got on a bus where the wheelchair space was taken up by a man with a large cupboard. I used the buggy space for ds's SN pushchair but when a heavily pregnant young mum got on the driver made her struggle to fold down her buggy. He was quite aggressive and got out of his seat to stand over her as she did it (didn't help her though). The man with the cupboard just sat there and I was hanging on to ds who was trying to use his feet to push his buggy over. I still feel ashamed that I didn't have the courage to say something like "If the designated wheelchair space had been free for my disabled child then this poor lady wouldn't have to struggle would she?" in a loud voice. I know I'd be braver if similar happened again because I felt so bad about it but the two men were very nasty and I didn't want to get into a row in front of my dcs. Now I think it would have set a better example if I had.

Out of interest I've just looked on my local bus company's website which says this:-
"There is no legal requirement for other passengers to give up their seat to accommodate a wheelchair user, but we do rely on the goodwill of other passengers to cooperate."
I was quite surprised by that as I was under the impression that the vehicles had all been made accessible (at great expense) to make life easier for wheelchair users and didn't think it would still be so hit and miss.

Why does a disabled person need a seat/space more than an abled bodied person? Thats one of the stupidest questions I've ever seen on here. Because they have disabilities that impair them that an abled-bodied person doesn't! Thats what the word disabled means, for gods sake!

Exactly Michaela - these things should be based on need.

There are times that those classed as able bodied do have more need than wheelchair users.

Andrewofgg yes I have got a better idea. If a wheelchair user gets on the bus if anyone who isn't using a wheelchair is in the wheelchair space they should be politely asked to get out of it so the wheelchair user can get on the bus.

bubbles, that was my point. MichaelaS was saying it may be seen as patronising to give priority to wheelchair users, to say that it is "gentlemanly" to give up a space for a struggling mother is also patronising.

not patronising if based on need - if the mother is struggling to balance the buggy and luggage then it's a kind thing to do to give up the space. if the wheelchair user is trying to get on teh bus its kind to budge up a bit, go upstairs, fold buggies if it helps etc to make a space. I just disagree with the blanket assumption that people already on the bus who have paid should be thrown off to make room for a person merely because they're disabled.

So ok, maybe outing myself a bit but I commute through canary wharf. it's very wheelchair / pushchair accessible. modern buildings, well maintained public areas, lifts everywhere, ramps everwhere, all busses and the DLR and jubilee lines all accessible. but the transport is often completely full at rush hour. Why should one harassed banker be asked to leave their bus to make room for another harassed banker merely because the second one is in a wheelchair? it seems to me that there is a level playing field here. they're both commuting and trying to get to their desks in time. the need for the space on the packed bus is the same, surely?

why is it so hard to understand that on accesible buses, there is a wheelchair space.
that is what it is for wheelchairs, so if someone else is making use of it, they should be made to move if a wheelchair needs it.
surely it is that simple.

I can't speak for Michaela, but I read it as she was saying that it's patronizing to assume that just because a person uses a wheelchair then they must always need the space more than a struggling Mum.

It's that point about beliveing wheelchair users must always have the greatest need simply because they use wheelchairs which is the sticking point.

Maybe I confused my point by using the word gentlemanly, it's just that the person I happened to be thinking of is particularly gentlemanly, and I quite like that about him!

i
the space is for a WHEELCHAIR that is why.

Again the mother with a pushchair has many more options available to them, the wheelchair user doesn't have those options.

this thread is so irritating,
I suggest that anyone who feels hard done by by there being once space on a bus for a wheelchair one ffs.
trys being in one

WHEELCHAIR USERS HAVE MORE NEED OF A WHEELCHAIR SPACE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

Which bit of this is difficult for you people to understand? Is the name wheelchair space confusing? Its a space for people in wheelchairs. HTH.

I don't think it is always that simple 2shoes, because that's exactly where the patronizing thing comes in. Why should a wheelchair automatically be given the space just because they use a wheelchair, if someone else needs it more.

Many wheelchair friendly facilities are now called 'accesible' rather than 'disabled' for exactly that reason.

I take the point that more often than not a wheelchair user will need a facility more, but it is patronising to assume that they will always need it more.

patronizing ????
someone is in a wheelchair, they have the chance of one space on each bus, a mum/old lady/dog/cat person can get on any bus they like.
so no it isn't patronising to allow a wheelchair user to use the wheelchair space.

if the space is reserved only for a wheelchair then why do we allow able bodied people to stand in that space when the bus is busy?

We allow able bodied people to sit in the seats reserved for those with greater physical needs too. those people have paid for their tickets. where there are other spaces available they should move seats / stand elsewhere to allow others on the bus.

But I don't think we should ask anyone to leave a bus to give that space to someone else - and I dont think we should assume the wheelchair users ALWAYS has the greatest need. Maybe the child in the pushchair does. maybe the able bodied commuter does.

SiamoFottuti thank you , I don't know you but I love you

MichaelaS because most bus drivers don't give a shit, they don't keep the space clear.