to rather intensely dislike Harriet Harman?

[grovel]

Naggy and bossy at the same time. And so tribal.

I have seen evidence from Sunshine (which I checked) and a rather poor attempt at rebuttal (i.e. non-evidenced) from others.

HerBeX has an incisive understanding of structural exclusion in politics.

And as for the "it's so hard to be a man in today's world" rubbish.

What, pray tell, is so hard about being a decent human being who ensures that they take their fair share of responsibility throughout life - whether that's at work, as a partner, or as a parent.

Why should that be any harder for men than it is for women?

Dont mention Clegg and the school run. That is the worst case of tokenism I've ever seen. He is running the country ffs. If he wants to do the school run maybe he chose the wong career. There will be plenty of time for playing daddy when he's living off the millions he makes from his memoirs in a few years.

Did anyone?

I've never said it's hard been a man Sunshine. It's easy I reckon. All I've done today is watch the Test Cricket on Sky, pretend to do work, post on MN and eat Haribo.

Maybe he doesn't play Daddy Maurice, maybe he actually does Daddy?

And maybe he has the right to be the Deputy PM and a father.

Go fuck yourself, Mauricetinkler. Totally.

On the subject of rape, one thing HH did not do was to try and encourage the attitude that rape victims are just evil lying bitches - which is precisely what the coalition did try to do when it decided to being in a law to allow men accused of rape to have anonymity. Only rape, mind you, not any other crime, even though rape is no more falsely accused than any other crime. I support the idea of anonymity for all accused, but not just for accused rapists as this supports the idea that women lie. When the truth is that accused rapists lie more often.

maurice, your heroine Doris has said it's terribly hard to be a man.

Women have it so much easier you see.

That's why they are on average poorer in old age, more likely to be murdered by their partner ,more likely to be raped, and on average paid less than men for the same work. Because they have it easier than men.

I like that name: DaddyMaurice.

Glad you like the name Maurice and have noticed that you don't actually engage with any of hte arguments or answer any questions.

But maybe Doris, your intellectual hero (bless) will do it for you.

I did indicate earlier that I'm not that clever HerBeX. Surely you must see the irony of me needing a woman to do my arguing for me...

I'm not sure, SAF... although I'm craving a bag right now...

Was Clegg doing the school run really tokenism? Or could, perhaps, this really out of this world idea be true - it takes two people to make a baby. Therefore, both people should be responsible for a baby. He was a father before he was a deputy PM, and a father before he became leader of the lib-dems. Therefore, kids come first. And to me, that's what I like to see in someone who is involved in the running of our country, even if most of the time I hate the man, and want to rip his balls off and shove them down his throat. But that's for selling out to the tories. Not for being a family man.

If a man goes out for an evening, leaves his wife at home with the kids, no one questions it. Y'know, she has to give that up for a bit, until she gets a babysitter.

If a woman goes out for the night, and leaves the husband at home with the kids, you hear cries of "oh, how wonderful. Isn't he lovely, babysitting the kids..." WTF is that about? You make the baby, you care for it.

Oh, a woman.... yes....

Clegg is opposing structural exclusion.

It isn't. It's feminists that brought about a universal right to vote. It's feminists which fought for maternity rights (hardly something that's reserved for MC women). It's feminists who helped make domestic violence illegal. I could carry on for hours. Feminists aren't just trying to help middle class women. They're trying to help all women. And some men too, y'know...
The same thing has happened to feminism as happened to the Labour party. It started off representing women in general and did a lot of good, but has not been hijacked by the middle-class who are using it to improve their lot and the lot of those like them, without a thought about women of more modest means who are on average worse off than their counterparts a generation ago.

oh what a stupid thing to say TartyDoris

Feminism is made up of loads of different strands. People who don't like feminism, have a vested interest in pretending it's only white middle class women who go in for it.

Good discrediting technique, but that's all it is - a discrediting technique. There's no truth in it.

Opinion without evidence, endlessly repeated, does start to sound a bit bonkers.

One of the biggest campaigns I'm involved with in feminism right now is the representation and treatment of single mothers. Hardly the preserve of the ivory-tower-inhabiting MC feminists removed from the real world.

2.5 million single parents. Only 861,700 paying - many of whom only paying £5 per week regardless of how many children they have because they are on benefits. Yet despite this the government want to charge people for using the CSA and tax the maintenance received as a result. That's a feminist issue. One that affects a lot of women.

Domestic violence. Such a problem the male-dominated police force want to change things. That's a feminist issue. One that affects a lot of women.

Rape. Something that affects all women of all classes. Feminist campaigned against the change to rape laws I mentioned above.

Changes to the budget, which were shown to disadvantage women, primarily low and second earners (so most women then). Hardly exclusive.

Feminism is as relevant to women today as it was to women 100 years ago. Not just rich MC ones. In fact, for poor women feminism is probably the only advocate they have right now.

Oooh... Sooo...

I imagined the 4 refuges which I stayed in over the past 3 years? They were a result of feminism.

I imagined the Reclaim The Night marches. Feminists started those, for all women

I imagined the rape crisis help lines, which feminism started.

I also imagined EVERY single young woman, some of which were very working class, who I've met over the past two years, who has declared herself a feminist...

Feminism does not exclude the working class. You're just attempting to devalue the work it does, the people who believe in it, and turn away the people who want to learn about it.

Feminism was the only advocate I had two years ago. If it wasn't for feminism, I'd still be with my ex, possibly beaten to within an inch of my life, and possibly with loss of custody of DS, because SS wouldn't want a child in that environment. No one else fought my corner harder than some of the feminists I met.

Feminists are predominately White, middle-class, fairly well educated women - that's the stereotypical image - and I'd say it's accurate.

The child support stats reported by Sunshine are very telling.