to think middle class parents, when shite, are a special sort of shite?

[CrapolaDeVille]

I am middle class, I think, but find the overtly 'darling, sweetie' set of parents particularly painful. Obviously bad/good parenting isn't reserved for any group or set, but I have only noticed middle class parents do the 'push my child first, I couldn't give a crap about fairness' sort of parenting.

EG. Today my 2yr old at a picnic with pre schoolers and their younger siblings. (dc4 was celebrating last day at preschool.) I gave dc5 my phone to flick through a story so I could eat my lunch and could stop running after him. Another child, boy aged 4, called (let's say) Jim wanted the phone. I said no as my dc was looking. He could look too. He tried to snatch making my dc5 upset (in that screamy frustrated 2 yr old way) Jim's mother says "you can share Darling" as Jim is crushing my child who is half his size, she deosn't ask him to get off. Now my dc is crying, she says "share Darling, come on" (I'm not sure who she is talking to) So then awkwardly I have to say "Jim you're crushing dc5", he tries to take the phone. So I put the phone back in my bag...."I want that phone" Jim says. I say "no it's away now". Jim pushes into me and punches me full force with both fists. Mother says FUCK ALL. Not five minutes later she tells him what " a good boy" he is and "so gorgeous" she could eat him Darling sweetie. She's so proud of his behaviour at the picnic,.

EG. DC5 gets scratched on the face with a stick, by a 4 yr old looking straight at me. Mother sort of shrugs and says nothing.

DC5 later on a bit cross and kicks a nearly empty bottle over, sheer naughtiness and devilment, before I can even speak mother of stick weilding child shouts "for goodness sake DC5" then spots me and says sorry. I was so fed up by this point that I just said "to be honest I expect nothing less from X parents" and left, in the knowledge that I'll never see them again.

EG Two little girls tell DC5 to get off trampoline saying 'it's ours get off', DC5 complies. Then I give him his football.....they come over shouting at him to share, but as he's only just got it he wanted to kick it first. I just found myself supporting my son in not sharing, even though I think it's important to share, I'm really cross with myself.

This is my last child. I have spent the last ten years watching my dcs play fair, take turns and be generally kind only to see the other mc brats not only put themselves first but parents whole heartedly endorse and encourage this behaviour.

I do know lots of other nice mc parents, but this type of parent is completely reserved for the middle class slightly older mother.(AGAIN to reiterate this is not all mc parents.)

I have been thinking about this, and I agree MC people are a special kind of rude - I used to work as receptionist and the terrible MC ones were the most patronising and demanding. But then there were people who were vile to me because they were basically having a really crap life and taking it out on everyone else.

BUT - does it not imply that we should expect them to know better? I actually think that 'orrible people are 'orrible - just in different ways. It's just harder to forgive the MC ones because they have all the power.

MC, middle-aged people care more about their DCs being able to "express" themselves, because when we were children that wasn't necessarily on the agenda, so they want that for their children. Trouble is, all that expressing yourself cause non-conformity at school and selfish behaviour.

I am MC, BTW but with WC roots

I've always thought some people are rude because they don;t know any better and some people know how to behave but don't think you're worth behaving for.

I also think it's one of those "times change" kind of things. Whilst I know there have always been some crap parents and vile kids I am stunned at how many more mothers seem ok to let their little monsters rule the roost now.

I'm an oldie compared to most of you and DCs are young adults but, as LeQueen said earlier, they were given firm boundaries when younger and we had a very easy ride through the teen years with both of them compared to some of their friends. I also think the mothers who want to be their best friends are making big mistakes.

Some parents, as a lot of you have said, seem to think that because they love and overindulge their little darlings, everybody should.

OOOh, good summary, I think

that was to Crapola

Those patents you have described sound like complete and utter arseholes - there's no way I would let my kids get away with shitty behaviour like that!

As a mc older mother, living in SW London I feel very, very hurt by this thread...

Nah, not really, I know just what you mean . Of course, it isn't that mc mothers are more likely to be insanely annoying and crap, but that when they are it is often in a particular way. Most of the mothers I know are actually very hot on manners, but there are some who are completely solipsistic. I have one very good friend who I do slightly avoid socially because her dc's bad behaviour is constantly justified on the grounds of his superior intelligence, the teachers' prejudice against boys, the prissiness of the child who objected to being walloped etc.

It is very wearing. Love the concept of M&S parenting, though

I think I actually need to reconsider how I choose my friends, I've lost so many where I cannot stand their children. I was bf a four week old at a friends and she allowed her three yr old to climb up onto my shoulders. Saying 'he just loves climbing'. It makes it so hard to say get down when the parent has already excused the behaviour without being really rude. So I pretended to wobble and he got down sharpish.

Same friend didn't realise that everyone felt the same adoration for their own children, within an antenatal group, and assumed everyone thought hers was the most precious.

I also live in an area where I really don't see this kind of parenting. Thank goodness. Is it really endemic?

The anecdotes about spoilt kids are sometimes funny. It is sad thu when you see one of them as adult and the pain it causes to others.

I have two cousins who were brought up like this, very good income, the kids were never wrong not even when they hit one of us, always the centre of attention, free to interupt, free to 'express themselves' etc etc. They are now both in their 40s and it is painfull to watch them. No sense of fairness at all, no ability to compromise, very self-centred and lazy. One of them was left by her dh and he told us 'it was torture living with her', they both have problems at work and they always ruin parties and days out.
At the most recent family wedding they both caused a scene because we 'were praising the wed couple and not them' . But then again it is not surprise because when they were little we had to sing 'happy birthday' to them even so it was someone else's birthday party .

I'm sorry but they were not born like this, they were made like this.

Because i 've seen the result of such parenting so close and for so many years i tend to say to my dcs 'tough, thats life' and 'you are not the centre' quite a lot , so they pay the price

Nothing to do with class. Just bad, overindulgent parenting.

A friend of mine has an uncontrollable boy who has been vicious since before he could walk. He is banned from our house now after too many incidents (I wish now we had banned him the first time he slammed DD1's head into a brick wall without provocation, he cried and got comforted instead of punishment).

The worst one occurred on his home turf at a mass 'playdate' during the school holidays.

DD2 was playing in his bedroom along with a few other children, she refused to get off his bed so he hit her knees, DD1 told him not to hit her little sister (she was nearly 5 and DD2 was just over 3) so he hit DD1 in the face.

DD1 took DD2 downstairs and told the first adult she saw what had happened and to who - this was the boy's mum. She told him not to hit again. No other punishment.

We were getting ready to leave when I noticed DD1 had a red mark on her face so I asked if she had had an accident. The story came out and we left, with me vowing never to let my DDs play with him again.

I should add Boy's mum never told me DD2 had hit in the knees or DD1 had been hit in the face. She knew DD2 was being investigated for pain in her joints (espec. knees!) and that she had been unwell for months. She has never told me even when she found out DD2 has been diagnosed with arthritis. I don't think I will ever forgive her for that.

I fully expect to be told IABU to have not cut her off the first time but I just kept giving her 2nd chances. More fool me.

Some of the behaviours are horrible! Especially the girl on the bus .

DH and I are one of the last couples to have kids in our circle of family and friends. IME the parents with a stricter parenting style, more emphasis on structure, more emphasis on actual sharing and being polite (saying hello/thank you/goodbye), have nicer kids, independent of their kids' characters. Some of the DCs were/are more boisterous and stubborn and willful, but it seems that, although it's a lot of work for the parents, the children appreciate having clear boundaries of what is and isn't considered acceptable behaviour.

I have learnt to define the taking turns above the sharing when DS has something another child wants immediatly. As in you can take turns with one object and share sweets where there is an amount of things to divide.

And when they say he's mean for not sharing I simply ask them what makes them think they are more important he should give up x object for them to have first go?

Not met a child yet who can give me answer to that one. These children are 6 and 7 though so older.

It's an incredibly short-sighted way of doing things: if you don't teach good manners early, it will bite you so hard further down the line that you will rue the day you started letting them get away with things. Bratty kids turn into anti-social teenagers.

I have a fifteen year old who has never been less than fantastic company and a pleasure to be around- while some of this may be down to sheer good luck, I know that the rest of it is because I never tolerated rude behaviour when she was little. Having a younger sister with severe learning disabilities has also shaped her ability to be kind and patient. The younger one has no verbal language at all, aged ten, but one 'sign' she uses. It is for please and thankyou.

Oh, and one other thing: LeQueen, I'm sure you are not too dull and frumpy to hang out with the other mothers- don't put yourself down like that.

Totally with you LeQueen. I am also smug proud as punch that my daughter has impeccable manners, and I deserve to be, because it's me who suffered throught the obssessive nagging teaching years. You put in the work and enjoy the rewards

I have 3 DCS, the first two are now 20 and 18, while DS is 9. Took him to a play/animal place on Wednesday and girs tagged along too, letting their "grown up" hair down and joining in the fun.I bought them all an ice-cream and a drink in the shop and I handed them out to a chorus of "Thanks mum." The lady serving looked up startled and said "oh, how lovely. I hardly ever hear that in here. You must be very proud of them!"
Well, I am proud of them for all sorts of reasons, but being able to say thank you on receipt of a gift ain't one of them. Surely that's normal?

Gah it is so frustrating that so there are so many stupid people who are fucking up their kids by letting them be spoilt, inconsiderate little shits! Why so they do it?!

But it is also heartening to hear so many wonderful stories from you MN mums about how you have brought up/ bringing up your kids the right way!

I don't know about the class thing, but this reminds me of something. My mother ran a home daycare, and one little girl was very rebellious. She was only a tiny little thing of about 3, but small for her age. My mom finally asked the mother how she handles it when child isn't listening to her, and she said... in a warm loving way, "Oh, I just give her a BIG HUG".

That was so helpful.

smellslikecatpee, if i could nominate you for a MN Award i would! that is ace!

i really, really hope the deluded mother is on here, has read this thread, and has realised she is heading towards having HELL in the tweenie years, hee hee. [hgrin]

You had PAID for your ticket/seat - what in the name of all that's hummus did the mother think she could deny you a EMPTY seat??? utterly insane.