to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

Catgirl1876, agreed! I have really worked both at school and after for my qualifications and work experience and now my good job and maternity package above the minimum is the reward. But I acknowledge that I am fortunate and certainly don't look down on others. My DH is less qualified and on little over NMW. I have done crappy work to sustain myself as a single mum including a factory job and handing out leaflets in freezing weather and being told what to do with them. I'm really glad that people empty our bins, cook my son's school lunches etc and would happily see improved pay and conditions for low paid people.

laquitur you make a good point.

I do think though, that even if resilience and optimism are personality traits we should still do all we can to foster them in our DC. My parents were working poor but were also honest enough to tell me that some of it was their own fault (they would point out things that they would have done differently if given the chance) and that I needed to take full responsibility for myself and not to look for excuses.

I think if you spend your time telling your DC that successful people are just lucky you foster the absolute opposite of resilience and optimism.

True wordfactory

Ha ha, love the way this thread has been turned round from the title, about people who "believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL" to somehow being about people who claim "successful people are just lucky."

Not really the OP's point, I feel. But much more comfortable to discuss.

Maybe that's because we couldn't find anyone who believed the ONLY reason they are in a well paid job is because they worked so much harder than any one else

Given that it did seem the OP didn't have much of a point

Actually I think everyone has acknowledged that hard work alone has not beem the key.

Exactly

Also, since this is a parenting site, it's hardly suprising that we move on to discussing how we can ensure that our DC whatever their background make the most of their opportunities.

And some of us feel that obsessing about luck be that good or bad will be hugely unhelpful.

Luck Shmluck.

And yet, all over MN, there are indeed threads like the OP complains of.

I was on one the other day where someone accused posters who receive a benefit of despising people who get degrees and work hard.

It was a disability benefit.

The posters she was attacking included a terminally ill person and someone caring for a treble amputee plus SN child.

Oh, and iirc most of the posters actually did have or were in the middle of degrees.

A poster accusing other posters who recieve benefits of despising people who get degrees and work hard - whilst unpleasant - is nothing like the threads the OP has complained of. In fact I think it may be the opposite?

I am

And by the way, I agree that anyone who thinks luck is the only component in success or happiness is deluded.

But I've seen plenty who seem to ignore it completely and merrily moralise at others on the back of this.

No, OP's second para seems bang on:

"well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives."

Swap "crap paid jobs" for "no jobs or exceedingly restricted hours" and that's pretty much it.

but even if you are a crap or badly paid job, you are still much luckier than many millions of people alive today. still much better off than most people who have ever lived.

Did you ever hear the story of the violinist and the stranger?

One day a violinist was performing in the street. His music was so beautiful and enthralling; hauntingly good. One particular woman, in the middle of shopping had stopped in a trance to watch him on the street, hypnotised by the exquisiteness of the violin music.

She stood for many hours watching him. When he finally finished the woman walked up to the violinist and in awe said :

"I would give my life up to play the violin as beautifully as you do"

The violinist smiled.

"My dear, I did".

i think it is way too easy to take many good things in your own life for granted and look to people with more when there are far more people with less.
the average life expectancy of a woman in Zimbabwe is 37.
so actually most people here, have good luck and favourable circumstances.

Surely what this is all about is having compassion. Don't judge others for being lazy or stupid - accept that for some people life is a series of hurdles they don't manage to cross. The fact that some others do manage to cross them doesn't make them any better or more deserving, simply more determined with the right character set to fight back. And I am sorry but the fact that, for others, there are very few hurdles to cross in the first place, makes them lucky!

Is it really so dreadful to be called fortunate? Does it really detract from your own sense of acheivement ?

Compassion can come in many forms.

Agreeing someone has had a dreadful life, still does and has no hope and is trapped forever is not compassion.

However ; having a belief in someone and seeing something inside them with potential and enouraging them to believe they have just as much chance as anyone else to improve their one and only life is compassion.

I know which I think is kinder.

Why don't some of you pay more attention to the way work has changed over the past 20 years or so? It's no wonder some people stay on benefits rather than work when the only jobs available are zero-hours contracts from employers who use every trick in the book to pay less than the minimum wage. (for those of you who don't know, zero-hours contracts mean that the employer is employing you but offers no guarantee of how much work will be available for you, and you only get paid for the hours you actually work). As someone did say upthread, now there are lots of jobs that you have to work as an intern(ie unpaid) for a year or so before you can actually be employed, so great chunks of the professions are completely ruled out for anyone who doesn't have family financial support.

SGB - because if they did that, they wouldn't have as much reason to feel superior and ever so pleased with themselves and that would never do.

ITA with whoever said that you can't compare being poor as a student to being poor as a parent, trying to support a family on your own.

" having a belief in someone and seeing something inside them with potential and enouraging them to believe they have just as much chance as anyone else to improve their one and only life is compassion." That is only compassion if you have a chance to act on those beleifs - it is NOT compassion if it leads you to turn your nose up at someone because they haven't done as well as they might, or as you have.

I've seen threads like the OP mentions, and there does seem to be some kind of that anyone who hasn't done so well in life must be down to some failing on their part.

I've done pretty well in life and I won't deny that luck played it's part in that. I make a point of not prejudging anyone who hasn't achieved a high wage or didn't enter a well paid profession.

My favourite quote from this thread has to be

"However, a lot of the posters aren't in well paid jobs themselves, their husbands are"

v v true.

if people are turning their nose up/feeling superior, they obviously are not particularly happy with their ?success?...

the other side is why should someone not feel pleased that they have made the best of the opportunities they have had? if they should not feel pleased, how should they feel?

I agree with allinabinbag.

Hard work is important to success (if you consider having a high paying job as success) but so is support, luck and timing.

I'm very privileged to have a decent job and degree but that's down to support from my parents and focus on education since I was v v young. But so what if I have a decent job? It means I have to work late, missed out on a lot of time with friends and fam when I was young and also have had my time of working tesco checkout and waitressing. Certainly no silver spoon here.

I do believe most people can achieve what they want but with a phenomenal amount of determination and being relentless but I don't look down on people from any walk of life. No-one can twill what's been going on beneath the surface.