to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

Sorry, one in fifty thousand - typing while bf!

Some of you must post with your eyes shut or something if you've never seen a certain poster berating people about their school choices and lack of hard work being the reason they now have no money/poorly paid jobs. She's renowned for it!

However, I do believe she is in the minority, although I have seen a few others with the same attitude.

FFS - if EVERYONE wanted to be a corporate lawyer and worked their arses off to achieve it, there wouldn't be anyone left to do other jobs. Ditto doctors and other highly paid professions. Doctors couldn't do their jobs without the support staff around them but boy do some of them look down on those support staff because they "didn't work hard enough at school or they could have been doctors too". Perhaps they didn't WANT to be doctors.

A person can work their arse off and still never be well paid, fact!

Thing is, the shitwork still has to be done. All those jobs that can't be outsourced to the developing world, or sorted out online. Bins have to be emptied, bums have to be wiped, food has to be produced and delivered. Even if you go into one of those areas with the aim of being the big boss sooner or later, there still needs to be all the people actually DOING the work. And there's only room for a few big bosses per industry. So hard work, imagination, dedication and the rest might make you reasonably well off, or they might not. Similarly being a greedy lazy attention-seeking nobbo might bring you wealth via reality tv, it might not.
But there's something a bit wrong when the majority of people doing the essential shitwork are having to either fiddle their benefits or take on additional equally insecure jobs just to be able to have dinner and a hot bath.

Laurie - You mean your ex went to a non Oxbridge/RG uni and managed to achieve career success?! Surely not, as I'm always reading on MN that Oxbridge/RG unis are the only ones that count, all other students are plebs wasting their time /sarcasm.

YANBU. There is a fair amount of smuggery about. I always think it's vulgar to boast about money/personal possessions, but I am a public sector pleb, so what would I know?

I would never judge anyone for working in a low paid job. The opportunities just aren't there for many people no matter how hard they work. Some kids aren't ever going to get great or even decent exam results or be able to further their education through no fault of their own so may well grow into adults working minimum wage because they have no other choice.

Here is my example of why I think it is not all about hard work at all and people who say that have only experienced 'hardship' that is not as difficult as they think it is.

I knew a boy in school who's father was a qualified surgeon and who's mother was a qualified doctor... in their home country. I forget where he was from exactly but his name was Dimitri and It was somewhere in the eastern block.

They had had to leave their country due to political reasons and some sort of civil war/ disturbance. Again not too sure on what exactly the issue was, but just that they had to run away from it.

Both parents had to take menial jobs here in the UK to survive and their qualifications were not recognised so they would have to retrain if they would ever have the chance to return to their former careers.

A series of bad events that were out of their control threw them into a sitaution where all their hard work had been for nothing and they would have to start all over again in their middle age.

I know lots of people who face things like this. I also know lots of people who are lucky and get opportunities by chance as well as knowing people who get opportunities through hard work.

It is massively naive to think chance does not play a part. I suppose I think people should think about how little things can end up affecting everything on a large scale and thusly affect them (the butterfly effect). Chance plays a great part in people's lives and it is not all about hard work because sometimes you can be dealt a bum hand and get the raw end of the deal.

I am, I suppose, bright. I have 4 A's at A Level and a first from Uni. But I am in a lowly paid admin job because I don't want my life to be about work. I can finish at 5, go home and have time to do what I want to do and not worry about anything.

I don't find my work fulfilling but for me it's just a way of getting a bit of money to live.

My boss, on the other hand, who is much more senior, works very long days and weekends, is always tired and stressed, is falling apart at the seams and quite frankly has no life. I wouldn't want to lie on my deathbed and think of all that time I spent in the office.

OP you said it yourself : 'how hard they have worked'. In the past. In a phase of their life. They talk in past tense, not present.

Not all but many high earners worked hard for few years and then got it easier later. But a factory worker will work hard all her life until the last day till she retires.

Personally i don't mind the 'i've worked hard to be where i am' so much but i find the 'the tesco girl with low IQ, well if she was bright she wouldn't work there' etc much more discusting. (now people will say that they haven't read that either)

LDNmummy, that was my family Except that they weren't doctors before the tragedy but they were ok-ish. And after the first tragedy (civil war) we settled in another country and then got hit by eartquake and lost everything again and moved to a third country . Thats why i laugh when people here say 'well my parents installed in me work ethic and education, they didn't watch JK'.

The thing is NO ONE on this thread has said that luck or good fortune hasn't played some part in whatever they have achieved. I think people just find it offensive that at a certain point people go "oh its all down to luck / who they knew / their parents." There seems to be some sort of general dislike for people who have "done well" based totally on thier income and lifestyle. In reverse that is pretty ugly so I am not sure why it is ok the other way around. I have seen any smugness but it clearly exists but you can't tar everyone with the same brush.

catgirl - I think the reverse isn't so unpleasant - it's generally considered acceptable to take mild potshots at the fortunate and successful - because after all it can't really hurt them can it? When you are driving past in your expensive car on the way to your nice house and thinking about your next holiday, are you really going to give a shit if someone mutters 'lucky bastard' at you?

Whereas having a go at those who are struggling to get by and whose lives might be much harder, is adding insult to injury. When you are doing all the shit work and have no prospects to improve your lot it would be incredibly cruel to be told it's all your own fault for being lazy.

Ah yes. I forgot having a nice car meant you don't have feelings or problems.

What?

Surely you can see my point?

I can see you point. But surely you can see that it is not ok to making sweeping and unpleasant generalisations based on an entire sector of society? Whoever that sector of society is. It doesn't make it ok because you percieve that it can't reall hurt them can it?.

Oh and you seem to be confusing income level with happiness and saying lower income = struggle and misery. Bit insulting.

Out of interest, what do people consider "well paid"?

I asked that earlier in the thread as I thought there would be some difference in views. It's difficult to answer as is is subjective and a footballer on £100k a year is not "well paid" in terms of his industry but totally overpaid in terms of what he deserves and "well paid" in terms of the UK average. I think to come in for the sneering SSD is talking about I would say £60k up.

Sorry, catgirl, I didn't read the whole thread. I agree with you - it's all relative. I live in central London, and tbh I think my salary is pretty crap, but I'm willing to take a bet that if my friends in Manchester/Liverpool knew what it was, they would reckon I was loaded.

Nope. Not confusing them at all. But I think unless you have experienced the daily grind of making ends meet I don't think you can understand how it gets you down. Knowing that you have a secure roof over your head and your children won't go hungry or without anything they need, contributes a lot to your mental well-being - but perhaps unless someone has experienced the opposite they won't appreciate their position. It is possible to be happy and poor - but it's a lot easier to be happy when you aren't.

No it isn't a good idea to making sweeping generalisations but this is what the thread is about - people on both sides making sweeping generalisations about The Other. Both are pretty stupid way to classify people - all I am saying is that it's more harsh when you are already struggling, to be told it's all your own fault because you are lazy and unabmitious.

Oh well in that case catgirl DH and I are well-off. And i feel incredibly lucky - I would have no problem at all with someone telling me I was.

Oh no I wasn't annoyed you had asked or anything - I was interested in the answer too. I think it is so subjective and hard to judge what is "well paid" or "well off". What is to one person won't be to the next.

Yes I am sure it is "more harsh" but it doesn't make it right. I know exactly what it is like to struggle to make ends meet. I don't like the assumption that I never had to work for what I have and never had to make sacrifices and I have had things handed to me on a plate. I find it lazy and unpleasant. I don't judge people on thier income or thier job. I don't see why it would be ok for someone to do the same to me.

You are so right, catgirl. I suppose I am well-paid, and DH certainly is, but I came to London straight from uni. I had an excellent degree (and yes, it is Oxbridge, sorry!) but no contacts, a £3k overdraft and 3 student loans.
I started working for a sh*t wage serving coffee and setting up meeting rooms in a law firm until I managed to get a foot in the door in the industry I am now in.
I can vividly remember my card being stopped, and not having enough money for a tube ticket, so having to ask at work for a wage advance of £20 cash to see me through the weekend. So to be honest, I do take some pride in my hard work over the last 12 years, and why not?

I agree with Catgirl. It often appears that people justify to themselves why they haven't achieved an income level that they are happy with, and others have by convincing themselves that others income was only through inheritance, nepotism and/or good fortune. No doubt that is the case for some people but when others come along and say "err no, I didn't have all of that, I worked hard to create my luck" then the accusation is immediately that they are being smug and are behaving as if no else worked hard. This completely misses the fact that usually people are reacting to the incorrect assumption that it was all inheritance, nepotism and/or good fortune. To the OP I would say, you only get one life, don't waste it being bitter and envious and focus on your own family/happiness etc, because if you do what others think won't bother you.

I remember coppering up the change jar to buy food and making a meal out of a tin of tomatos and some flour as that was all I had in! Yes now I earn an extremely good wage but I made a lot of sacrifices to get where I am and still continue to do so. I don't take it for granted and I agree there is an element of luck but I worked hard, I am still working hard and I went through a lot to get here. I also pay an absolute fortune in tax now so it's not like I am not giving something back either. I have always believed the more you earn the more tax you pay and have voted accordingly. That didnt change when the 50% tax got brought in and I would still vote the same way.