to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

[Starchart]

Just because the government says your parents can afford to put you through university (i.e. you're not entitled to any additional money) doesn't mean that a)they agree and b)they really can.

[MonkeysInShoes]

I come from a very poor background (get your violins out), grew up in an absolute shithole, but with parents who had a very strong work ethic.

Left school at 15 with no qualifications, to start earning. Paid to take my GCSE's at night school when I was 18/19 and then worked in all kinds of shitty jobs that fitted around children etc until I was mid-twenties.

I became a single parent, at one point was legally homeless, but continued to work. I got a toenail in the door of a global company (temping) and went for it. I paid to go to work. Literally, I'd have been better off at the time giving up and going on benefits, but I hung on.

I got taken on by the company and earned even less than I did as a temp, for the first 10 months.

Eight years on, I have a well paid job, working for that same company.

Hard work got me here, with an element of luck as well though. I couldn't have planned this career when I was a teenager

[moonferret]

The Just World Hypothesis and Fundamental Attribution Error made interesting reading. OP makes a good point. There's no doubt that people who've had every advantage going nearly always say that it down to their "hard work" rather than the fact that they are from a wealthy (or decidedly "middle class") family where the expectation was for them to go to University with all expenses paid after a private education. I know of people who are quite frankly as thick as but are working in professional jobs, largely thanks to their background. And to the person who said that the "it's not what what you know, but who you know" phrase is rubbish, it's actually one of the most accurate there is. Always has been and always will be...that's human nature!

[TrinIsASadSpottyFatRhino]

has ssd been back at all?

[catgirl1976]

I really do think some posters on here are making sweeping generalisations about higher earners that would not be tolerated were they made about those on a lower income.

I resent the implication that I have the job I have "because of someone I know". I have it through a mix of hard work, talent and some good fortune. Not because of my background or who I know.

starchart are you saying it is harder for kids from middle income backgrounds to go to uni than those from low or high income backgrounds? If you are I would agree with that.

[AlabamaWorley]

YANBU

I have 3 degrees. My DH didn't go to Uni. We were both unemployed when we met and were without work for a year. I got a job first for 30k. He then got a lucky break and the offer of a job on 21k. He worked his socks off and won awards. He got a 10k pay rise after 6 months and another 10k pay rise after 12 months. 2years later we both changed jobs - me to a job nearer home but for less money. Him same location but for almost double my salary. My DH changed jobs again and asked for salary higher than their benchmark, which they agreed too! In between all this, he was made redundant at the start of the recession and couldn't get interviews. It was awful. But his perserverance, charm, good luck and his career record landed him a great well paid job.

I am both proud and jealous of him!

So I think qualifications are good but are not the be-all and end-all. I think hard work, determination and luck helps most people into their dream job.

[proudfoot]

allegrageller

The (rather smug) person up thread who got lots of loans, felt flush and got a first is unusual.

Can't you read? I said I only got the bare minimum loan (i.e. much less than a student from a low income family gets. I did not "feel flush" but I survived on the minimum because I got a job and used my overdraft, but I was not bankrolled by my parents. I had enough to live on.

Starchart

She probably STARTED universty with a wardrobe of clothes.

Yes I did. I had been working 2 jobs throughout my A levels (at weekends all day and into the night - bar shift after working in a shop) and bought them myself. I also bought more out of my basic student loan and money I earned at university... Even students can afford to buy clothes you know :)

Her parents probably bought her the odd weekly shop.

No they didn't. They probably would have done if I had gone to university closer to my hometown but I was very far away.

She probably got money for her birthday

Yes I did some years. Not massive amounts as my family is not into birthdays.

and probably had a computer to take with her.

Yes, one I bought myself with money I earned from my jobs.

She had probably had some life experiences that made it possible for her to get a job that paid a sensible wage and gave her sensible hours.

What "life experiences"? If you are insinuating I got a well paid and cushy job through contacts you are wrong. I did call centre work like lots of students. No special skills required.

I don't doubt that she worked hard too, of course.

Okay.


University is accessible to anyone who has the academic ability and people like you who argue that students can't go for financial reasons are simply wrong.

It is a shame that ill informed hysteria over student finance puts off able students who think they need lots of money to go. It is perfectly possible for someone from a low income family to go to university, have enough money to survive without receiving any assistant from their family and do well. They DO receive extra funding - someone else has posted the figures. They have enough to get by fine.

Not sure how that is me being "smug"

[proudfoot]

Also starchart you have some absolute front to make loads of assumptions about me.

[catgirl1976]

Totally agree with Proudfoot. University is accesible to those from low income backgrounds and hyping the fact that it isn't whilst ignoring the funding avaliable is a real shame if it puts off just one student who could or would have gone otherwise. Its no guarantee of a job but it is an experience that shouldn't be denied someone due to mis-information or inverted snobbery.

[catgirl1976]

Why is that? There is no difference in funding for an arts degree?

[Starchart]

Proudfoot, it is the hypothetical you I am making assumptions about. I have no idea about your circumstances. Perhaps you really did have to share your bedroom with two brothers, one of which played loud music all night long, and a mother than needed caring for in the evenings, as well as your doing a part-time job that you took your revision homework to sneak glances at when no-one was watching. Well done you.

[catgirl1976]

If they don't earn a high salary, they will not have to repay the loans. They will only have to repay if they earn a salary that can support the repayments.

[catgirl1976]

The rules on repayment have been the same since 1998. It shouldn't pass prospective students by - they should be entitled to the facts but people like starchart shouting that university is only for the well off really doesnt help.

[proudfoot]

Nothing wrong with arts degrees and there is no reason to believe they will not lead to a decent salary.

Most graduate jobs just ask for a 2.i in any subject.

You can go into all sorts of graduate careers with an arts degree - law, investment banking, management consultancy, marketing, accountancy, management schemes, academia, HR, publishing, charity sector, sales schemes, whatever... Obviously you are not going to get a very technical scientific job or go into dentistry or become a doctor but if you are drawn towards an arts degree you probably don't want to follow a very scientific career path.

[proudfoot]

catgirl1976 I totally agree with you.

Schools should be pushing the real facts of student finance and prospective students should be looking into it - it is all quite available on the internet.

People protesting and handwringing are doing far more harm than good and they are simply misrepresenting the facts.

[BakeliteBelle]

YANBU. Sorry, can't be bothered to read this thread but get really fed up with people suggesting that hard work equals spondoolicks moneywise. I know loads of hard working public sector workers - mainly nurses - who put in long hours in incredibly stressful jobs, yet never earn anything like the other people I know who work in jobs like advertising, training, 'project management' (whatever the fuck that is), games industry and other non-essential careers.

[catgirl1976]

OP I haven't seen much smugness, but I really have seen a lot of inverted snobbery, bitterness and sweeping, unfounded, generalisations on this thread which I have found to be unpleasant and unhelpful. I hope this is a minority. I think any thread which makes assumptions about an entire group of people based on an arbitary characteristic is unreasonable.

Can you imagine if someone had started a thread saying AIBU to think people only low incomes think the ONLY reason they are in that situation is down to bad luck and being lazy and not bothering at school doesn't enter in to it at all?

They would (rightly) be lynched. Shame on you for doing the same thing. I'm off to bed.

[proudfoot]

Starchart

Proudfoot, it is the hypothetical you I am making assumptions about. I have no idea about your circumstances.

No of course you don't, which is why it is not helpful for you to write things about me which you claim are "probably" true. How on earth could you judge the probability?!

[Tchootnika]

Oh for heaven's sake...
It's human nature for anyone to want to justify their own perceived advantage or good fortune as deserved.
It's human nature to be bitter about other people's good fortune (whether or not it's earned/deserved/justified)
Both approaches are defensive. Neither one is likely to be entirely accurate. Neither will ever capitulate to the other.
And on it goes...

[Goodynuff]

University here costs on average 3-4000 per year, not counting books, equipment, fees, or cost of living. Unless you are funded by family, most students come out of school with a 20 or 30,000 loan to pay back, or work during school, and spread classes over a longer time period.
If you are funded through gov't financing, you can get interest relief and a hold on payments, until you are making a better wage. You still have to pay it back, you are not allowed to declare bankruptcy against it, and it counts against you if you apply for a mortgage.
It does mean you have the chance to go to collage or university though, which could lead to a decent job. It also means you run the risk of having a degree or two, and working in a call center, or a grocery store.
It is a difficult choice to make, when you run such a risk, but if you don't, you get left behind.

[ninedragons]

I agree with AuntyChrist.

For most of the truly lucrative jobs, the absolutely essential element of luck happens at the point of conception.

We all know that care assistants and cleaners work very hard for not much money. That's because pretty much anyone could do those jobs. Probably, what, one in five hundred people has the mathmatical aptitude to be a quant analyst. Maybe one in a fifty thousand girls is born beautiful enough to be a supermodel. Of course the person has to take the choices to enable that career - it's obviously not going to happen if the maths genius pisses off to an ashram and smokes pot for 30 years, or the potential supermodel lies on the sofa eating Monster Munch until she's fat.

Pay rates for jobs, on the whole, tell you about how widely the talent required is distributed throughout the population.