To think this situation in East Africa could be less serious than it is if there was more information about contraception.

[JazzieJeff]

Ive been thinking this over for some time, and I don't want to appear prejudiced, but I don't think I am being. Because after all, so many people say of people who are struggling to live on low wages/benefits in this country 'why are they continuing to have children?'. So really, my point is the same, but in East Africa, people are bringing children into a world where there is a bloody good chance they will starve or die a horrible death from dirty water.

I dont know whether it's a lack of education, or the spread of the Catholic faith in the developing world. However, I'm not sure if either of these validates people continuing to bring children into such a dire situation. I can honestly say that if I was in East Africa, and that was happening to me and I didn't have access to contraception that I would abstain. I really would. I could not bear to allow any child of mine to suffer. Secondly, if it really is the Catholic faith which prevents so many people from using contraception (as is the case in many developing countries), why isn't there more pressure from governments and charities on the Vatican to start putting money up to start paying for all these children? It's not like they're short of cash; how about using some of those funds they use to put gold leaf on the walls to start putting food in children's mouths. Children, that ultimately, they are responsible for. Because this is getting ridiculous. This has happened twice (that I know of in this country) in my lifetime. Either way, AIBU to think that there needs to be a better solution to birth control in these places, be it contraception or abstinence?

And btw, I'm grateful for all the posts. I am.

I am hopeful to learn, even though I personally probably won't exactly make a lot of difference. I am wondering what other people think would be a good solution? I know there is corruption, but there is corruption everywhere.

could we give them cake?

If the suggestion that contraception might help is so evil what about the mumsnetters who regularly say that people on benefits shouldn't go having more kids.

I must remember next time to direct them here so you can tell them they are nazis

Onagar if you kind find a post on here that suggested contraception was evil or even to be discouraged in Africa, please do point it out.

If you can't, which given it doesn't exist is likely to be the case, please stop talking out of your arse.

Thanks

Valid question re. population growth op. I feel it is a disgrace that people in the third world do not have the same easy access to free and fairly reliable contraception that we do, ditto water, education, food and everything else that we take for granted.

As another poster pointed out, the formula that we are using for aid is wrong. Because this is not the first time this situation has occurred. I just think there has to be a better answer.

As for the cultural differences, I understand that the differences are huge. But look at Rwanda. That is an example of a country that has, on paper succeeded under much of it's own steam to regenerate itself since the genocide. But look closer, and you still see the same old problems, the same old corruption, systematic rape, oppression and violence. Perhaps with a bit more co operation from the west (including some of our values, like contraception where appropriate etc) it would be a better place to live.

Perhaps, with the aid formula we are currently using, this country will eventually pick itself up and go forward. But unless we give our support, it may not go forward at all, or if it does then it may carry on with many of the problems it currently has, simmering under the surface.

Bib they don't have access to any of the things you mentioned because they are extremely expensive, even by our standards. In Africa you are either really, really rich or really, really poor. There is no inbetween. Simple things like contraception are just not available, hell even doctors aren't available. And where they are available, expect to pay through the absolute nose for them.

Agreed Amy.

But I happen to agree with op that contraception should be a priority. In the first world we tend to have fewer children. Of course this is down to huge cultural and financial differences and the life of luxury we lead.

Ime there is nothing wrong in saying that one of the ways to help alleviate suffering in the third world is to put fewer people through it. Its obvious, although many people feel it is a crass or hard-hearted pov, but if we have families of 10 children where 6 children die, wouldn't it be infinitely much better if we had familes of 4 children where 4 children live?

I may have missed something important, but I thought that this famine was caused by drought rather than overpopulation and exacerbated by civil war. It is quite usual to have largish families if you run a farm or smallholding.
There is lots of research money going into drought tolerant crops, hopefully technology will help solve these problems in the future. Africa is a such a huge continent wish such potential for wealth, that it breaks my heart to see their minerals and natural reserves taken by Western multinationals.

Yes sarf that's what the problems are caused by. But the issue is, nothing has moved on. The same thing happened before. The aid we're giving isn't working.

JazzieJeff -

Most aid is government to government (for infrastructure, health services, institution building etc.. long term stuff). Investment flows are even greater than official aid (although not so much in failed states like Somalia). Private aid (charities) is really a small portion of money going for development, and of that only a fraction is emergency food aid of the high profile DEC appeal and Band-Aid type of approaches.

... Which is not to say it is all used well or effectively, but the popular conception that aid means dropping pennies in the tin to pay for food aid distribution is just not accurate (but still the impression that people get from the media,children from school etc...)

It is good you are interested and want to know more, but don't think you are the only person who ever thought 'there should be more to aid than handing out blankets and rice' - aid professionals are not just well meaning do gooders.

Good books to read on aid and development and relatively accessible are - "The Bottom Billion" and "The White Mans Burden" - Bill Easterly's Aidwatch blog is good too. But lurk, don't post unless you want to be torn apart even further than on MN .

JazzieJeff Fri 08-Jul-11 21:13:36
"I SAID THAT IF I WAS IN THAT SITUATION, ME JAZZIEJEFF I WOULD CHOOSE TO ABSTAIN BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE MY CHOICE. NOT THAT THAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THIS. OFFERING A CHOICE IS. "

This is assuming that you, as a woman, would be the one making a choice. That is not necessarily the case in a culture that prioritises men's sexuality above women's. Condoms are indeed the cheapest form of contraception. But they do presuppose a male who is willing to put them on his cock.

By the way, can I just say (as was mentioned on another thread) that I am not, as a member of the armed forces of 'dropping in endless rice and water' (-and if you can find where I said that, I'd be grateful. Seems to me like you just took what you wanted and twisted the words). No, what I am tired of is it not seeming to make any difference. The aid we are dishing out is not working. It isnt. We need to do more.

I am also not saying 'they are breeding too much'. Again, please say where I said 'they are breeding too much'. Ah, that's right, I didn't. I said they have e human right to contraception should they want it. Because no matter what your culture is, you do not bring a child into the world to watch it die. Who's to say they don't want a choice? What, just because they're a different culture they don't want a different way of life?

Let's go in, dump a load of water and rice on them

OP's words.

Not understand the concept of sarcasm?

Spent too long in denial. The money we've given has failed. The aid has not worked. Those poor people are here again.

'why are they continuing to have children?'

OP's OP.

OP has a very valid point and I don't quite know why s/he is getting such a pasting.

Purely numerically, providing food aid alone is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom. I am not suggesting for one second that we stop trying, but mathmatically it would be much easier to feed everyone if there were two children per family rather than eight. That's a bald fact.

The knee-jerk posters ticking off the OP (ffs, Nazi eugenics?) are also showing their Western privilege, in assuming that anyone who HAS ten children WANTED ten children. Give people economic security, health care and choice, and how many kids do they have? Two or three, like the vast majority of we economically secure people on MN have chosen to have.

I agree with the OP - access to contraception is a fundamental human right.

Linerunner. I made that example about the things people say to people who are on benefits, people on MN say that to people on a low wage/benefits. At no point did I say that about them. Why are you refusing to accept there is a right to choose how many children you have?

Why are you refusing to accept there is a right to choose how many children you have?

OP's own words.

'why are they continuing to have children?'

OP's own words.

JazzieJeff many women choose to have a certain amount of children on the basis that, they have 8 for example, 2 die in infancy, depending on how many boys they have- they lose 3 to war, leaving 3 if they don't die of disease, these existing children look after them when they are older. This is the life they are living, there's no safety net for them.

Access to contraception is absolutely a fundamental human right but we need to understand the many reasons why the offer of contraception might not help.

My point exactly linerunner, you don't seem to believe people have the right to choose how many children they have.

I made a point in my op that said people on a low wage often get told on here 'oh, why are you still having kids then?'. Right. They have a choice. The women I'm talking about don't. Why are you assuming like nine said, that these women want all these children? Because they're poor? Because it's in their culture? Please. When it comes down to basic survival, you can't tell me that some of these women who are struggling to feed their babies, watching them die aren't torn to pieces and wish they had an alternative.

Wiggle I agree. The contraception and advice we're currently offering isn't working as is. We need to work out a new strategy. Something that works alongside different cultures, because at the moment we're forcing things onto them that are alien to them.

I think a lot of people don't like this thread because it's horrible to admit that we're here again in this situation. Our efforts aren't cutting it. It's uncomfortable for people to admit that.

OP, I also do not understand why you are getting such a grilling.
I think you make a very valid point.

but our efforts are look at the work done in ethiopia from live aid, they have created communities that work, farms, set up education, hospitals, all this costs vasts amounts of money but essentials have to be dealt with first