AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Lying, it's political shorthand rather than a 'label' - well, it is to me and most other feminists! Same as I'll say I'm left-of-centre, a capitalist, pro-choice, all the other things on which I hold a definite position.

anti-sexist is good enough for me, garlicnutter.

I too hold definite views about various issues and I refer to be pushed and tweaked into an 'ideals group', I'd rather stand on my own and think what I think from the resources and experience available to me. 'Self-appointed arbiters' is very apt.

Yes, because all views politcal and moral can be summed up by a set of multiple choice questions. Unique views don't exist, only extremes. You're either por0choice or pro-life. Either abortion is a fabulous right of freedom everyone should enjoy or it's the work of Satan. No one thinks in between the two extremes unless they don't have a view, do they?

It's just another way of cartegorising people.

If your posts was intended for me, Atomic, I don't understand it. It so happens that I do see abortion as a "right everyone should enjoy", though I wouldn't say enjoy was the correct term! I still understand, appreciate and think about other povs though.

... and, wrt sexism, I do hold an extreme position: all sexism is wrong. Though, again, I can understand how it happens and am guilty of it myself at times.

I like 'ideals group', Lying! Been a long time since I wrote all my ideals down, might have a go at it this weekend :)

Yes, sexism is wrong. We all agree. However, what we consider sexism can't really be summed up in one word. Like the pro-life view. I don't know which one I fit into, probably somewhere in the middle, but I think it's because I've thought about it quite a lot to arrive at that conclusion. It shouldn't be illegal, I think there are circumstances when it is right but I don't think it's right for everyone and I don't think it should be pushed onto people and it shouldn't be the first choice. And that is a very basic summary and probably doesn't really express how I feel about the subject.

I don't think most people can be put into specific groups. I also think that's why smaller parties with only one perspective or subject (Pro-Life, Greenpeace, UKIP) will never run the country, because people care about a large variety of subjects, not just the one.

On that note, why isn't there a femist party? If done right, it could work.

Thinking about it, garlicnutter, I'd quite like an 'ideals group' too - but one that's flexible and has room for everybody with er... ideals.

Start one, garlicnutter and they will come...

What annoys me most about radfems is that they lay claim to all the good things that women have achieved (votes, education etc) and say, "Don't you believe in them?" Then, when you say that of course you believe in equal pay etc, they tell you that you MUST therefore believe whatever ludicrous shite they're punting at the time; usually something to do with sex (BDSM should be outlawed, there is no such thing as consensual prostitution, no woman ever made a porn film for fun and so on...)

And if you don't happen to agree, you're told you're anti-women!

Thing is I do agree with some of those points (well, as far as BDSM goes, if whatever consentual stuff goes on behind closed doors in no ones business), but I do agree with feminists on prostituion and pornography, especially knowing that around 80% of them were childhood sexual abuse victims. Hard not to, really. But that's a total other thread.

Actually, it just kind of highlights that some of these quite valid arguements are getting lost in all this.

But where does the 80% figure come from? Radfems also use a lot of very dodgy statistics.

Ideally, they would come, Lying

I found it in a study on women who were in the sex trade. A couple of hundred were interviewed, but it's a hard figure to find a link to. It didn't apply solely to porography though. I've searched, but cannot find the stat on this.

And at the moment, I'm in work and I will not sit there running searches on pornography because I'll get sacked if anything I don't want comes up by accident.

There were also studies that confirmed the porography actresses enter states of idsassociation during shoots. Anyone who knows psychology should know that that is not good. Even if they didn't develop this ability when younger, it still shows that they ain't exactly enjoying what they are doing.

I meant I can't find the stat on pornography alone.

seeker, wasn't it you who had a book on this subject? Got a link?

I've worked with prostitutes in various capacities. From my own experience, I'd hazard that 99.9% of them suffered childhood abuse. I don't know whether Wolfenden put it in his report, but he told me they ALL had. Women who've worked as lapdancers say the same thing, once they've left the job.

Psychologically, I guess it stands to reason.

'And a made-up man is a 'poof'' - really? (don't worry, Orm will get it )

TAb yes- pro choice but genuine choice: not influenced by either the pro lifers or people sniping about how said baby will be a drain on the state or whatever.

Dh concurs with your views on the way men expect certain things as well; Dh, frtankly, cannot be bothered. The man next door in his sxties just got amrried to his pregnant 24 yera old aprtner. Good on him, he's a lovely man. Would Dh do it? @i'd rather just build the carnival floats to be honest'- I believe him.

It is the personal / political stuff that deters me I suppose though, that and the dismissive attotude of a very few. And this idea that ferminism has to be the only meaning your life has: sorry it isn;t. It''s important to me but comes under protecting the boys now and in the future (and daughters had I had them of course) and keeping my family safe and secure; same values dh has. The fact that takes a lot of energy via disability awareness campaigns etc means my name is not flagged as feminist / equalist / egalitarian / etc but it doesn't make me less true of me.

(that applies to hookers-by-choice, not victims of coercion)

The porn stats not surprising really- a few psych patients I worked with (NOT at the charity that I am associated with oon here) had linked histories and they had large % of abusive histories as well; heck some days driving into work meant driving past several clients looking for a bit of trade.

But outside the immediate actors a lot of the trade is just usual people in usual lines of work. Dh used to work in the transport industry on the paper contracts and porn was a large % of what went through the office. he rarelya ctually saw it (managerial role) but they would know it was out as they'd get calls from different faith groups asking that future deliveries not be on shared loads.

And you could see DH, who is not really a man of the world, married his first love etc etc gradually get used to the idea of porn in his field; presumably that sort of acceptance is the big key.

Thank goodness he is out now.

Of course I don't expect you to look for porn stats at work! But even accepting the 80% stat, what about the 20% who are fine with what they do? Radfems have a habit of denying they even exist. I remember one thread (often referred to as the punter net invasion) on prostitution where a good number of working girls arrived to defend themselves, and were told they were in denial, disassociating and so on; why can't radfems accept the lived reality of their lives?

Have you got a link to this, Garlic? I know it's true, but people links.

I have only ever spoken to one woman whom I knew was a prostitute (no, I was not a customer, nor have I ever or will ever be). She told a story that made me feel physically sick involving her step father and a group of his friends.

Old Lady, I couldn't watch it now even under the risk of someone doing that whilst lying there thinking that the world wants to masturbate over her being abused, which is how she would see the seens that they produce in modern porn. How much faith she must have in the human race.

And what reality is that, Old Lady?

The way I see it, I don't label myself a feminist mainly because I don't label myself anything.

But mainly, this is how I see it. Modern feminism sees itself as the same thing as the movement that included suffragettes, fighting to get women equal rights. But to me the word feminism came just after all the important stuff had been done, including convincing most men of the fairness of equality for women. what's been done by those who have called themselves feminists since are things I agree with half the time (more equality and womens rights are essential, especially in the rest of the world) and disagree with the other half (I like porn, and think most men these days seem on our side, not resenting our success) so the labels not for me. On balance I'm pro-feminism, but think it too often it is militant and confrontational, which is counter-productive IMO.

Well, according to them, the reality that working as a willing prostitute pays well, involves nothing they're not willing to do, and can even fit well round childcare and so on. So many of them said it, why shouldn't they be believed?

Sorry I can't continue this conversation atm, have to go to work.

The prostitutes I have come across are drug/alcohol ridden people with chaotic and sadly wasted lives. Many are young Eastern European girls. And why the need for drugs if they enjoy their jobs so much?

A great miserable subculture exists where no one cares about feminism or even if these prostitutes (male or female) are happy, except what they will bring in fiscially.

That is the reality.