AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Exotic, I've seen you being flamed on there. I've linked to one example further up, actually. (Just mentioning it because I happened toagree with with you were daying on that thread, from what I read of it).

Sunshineandbooks I checked your figures. I assume this is what you are referring to
www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1280&itemTitle=Statistics%3A+how+common+is+domestic+violence

Women's Aid says
One in four women: An analysis of 10 separate domestic violence prevalence studies found consistent findings: 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence over their lifetimes and between 6-10% of women suffer domestic violence in a given year (Council of Europe, 2002).

Is that just the UK? Women's Aid doesn't say. Anyway 'over their lifetimes'... it's bad of course, but you seemed to be implying in their current relationships - maybe you shouldn't have left off the 'over their lifetimes' bit.

Women's Aid says
45% women and 26% men had experienced at least one incident of inter-personal violence in their lifetimes. (Walby and Allen, 2004)

Forgive me for assuming that men are far less likely to report. And how many shelters are there for abused women compared to those for abused men? Should there be shelters for abused men? Why not, in this Patriarchy? I'd appreciate an answer to this question.

TinaLeena wrote - "The right way to do it is to look at each profession and make the average between men and women, within that profession. Doing that, you can see that men and women make the same for that job."

In which report is that shown?

This is why I refuse to be identified as a feminist. I keep hearing all the same faulty studies. It's like math the math was made by toddlers.

MarySueFTW wrote - "how many shelters are there for abused women compared to those for abused men? Should there be shelters for abused men? Why not, in this Patriarchy? I'd appreciate an answer to this question."

The whole concept of such shelters was invented by feminists. Feminists have raised the money to set up numerous shelters for abused women because they would not have existed otherwise.

How many shelters have anti-feminists set up for abused men or abused women?

A study of the gender wage gap conducted by economist June O' Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for experience, education, and number of years on the job.

BBW - you should have to waste your imagination on a wank (or make your arm ache turning pages in a novel) because of the high levels of abuse in the porn industry together with the fact that you don't know enough about what you are watching to know if you are watching something that is all lovely or not.

as things stand you have no way of knowing if you are wanking to a happy woman who likes being in porn or a former victim of child abuse, someone who is doing it to pay for her drug habit or indeed an actual rape.

this is not to say that these things apply for all women in porn. But the problem is you can't tell.

Even the stuff that is supposedly home-made is problematic because 1. some of it is not actually home-made, it is just made to look that way and 2. some stuff was filmed willingly but then put on the internet without the woman's consent and 3. some is showing actual abuse.

it's all a bit risky.

without getting into arguments about objectification and if it would be ok as long as there was a properly policed ethical porn industry or not, as things stand the mainstream porn industry is not ethical, it is vile and exploitative.

Actually WRT to the abused men thing, one of the major DV charities runs one and is campaigning for more as they ahve to turn huge numbers away.

In some cases, meetings held by groups to establish men's shelters are even screamed down by angy people claining to be feminists.

Lovely to have someone agree with me, there were a few people who supported, but by and large they keep off and the 'regulars' have it their own way-each reinforcing their own prejudices.
It is like the worst of the school playground, those that gang up and shout the loudest get their own way. The sensible keep well away and the stupid (me) try and say that feminism is about choices and that other people's choices are just as valid. However I was told today that it isn't about choices-that is consumerism.

That's why I'd rather not take the label. There are too many bad things associated with it now. It is about choice, Exotic.
I just get tired of being told by some feminists that I am supporting the patriarchy because I choose to see men as equals and be "feminine".

None of this 'oooh look how nasty feminists are' actually explains why any woman would want to be a non-feminist. 'They were nasty to me once in that shop' is not a reason not to go in another similar shop is it?

Unless you honestly think that everything in the world is rosy and women really don't have anything to worry about. In which case hurray, open the champagne.

Sorry to kind of go off on a tangent, but one of the things that has been repeated here (and in many debates re discrimination/sexism) is the low conviction rates for rapists.
Now this seems to me to be consistently framed as an example of the inherent mysoginy or sexism of the legal structures.
I was wondering if I could get a feminist perspective on this particularly in regards to 2 questions.

1. What can be done to change the way that rape cases are to be treated while still maintaining the presumption of innocence and other rights inherent to the defendant?
2. Seeing as it is, at least theoretically, treated the same as all other violent consent based crimes are the low convictions not actually a reflection on soceity rather than the legal institutions as it is juries who are the ones to convict and while they are a part of a legal process they are not legal professionals.

i agree that the porn world is a shady one.... very shady indeed. perhaps i should try and locate some cgi/animated porn... did i just write that? yes, yes i did. don't think less of me. and attempt to forgive our (mine and men in gen) indiscretions because in the words of dolly parton (god i love that woman) after all... he's just a man. now don't any of you be talking crap about dolly, coz thats where i draw the line. THE LIN~E!

And re choice. Can you seriously say you care about women if you do something that undermines them? All that says is that your individual choice is more important than the cause of women as a whole.

rofl re animated porn. Good idea.

hello mrs simpson... what's that you say? homers out on business? BOW-CHIKA-WOW-WOW. aaaah yayeah! love you girls/guys. have fun. i really have to go

I'm not saying all feminists are nasty...just the man-hating radical feminist types who feel it just as right to push their views on the rest of us women. I've been torn apart by these people for sticking up for my husband, and for not seeing my son as a potential rapist.

Those women give the rest of us a bad name. Why would I want to identify myself with their hate-group?

torn apart you say? that must have been painful

"Why would I want to identify myself with their hate-group?"

Well don't then. Identify yourself with the feminists (the vase majority) who aren't like that.

TinaLeena because it's not their hate group and if you feel they've made it as much then it's down to you and others of similar thinking to reclaim it? right, really really have to go...

MarySueFTW wrote - "how many shelters are there for abused women compared to those for abused men? Should there be shelters for abused men? Why not, in this Patriarchy? I'd appreciate an answer to this question."

The whole concept of such shelters was invented by feminists. Feminists have raised the money to set up numerous shelters for abused women because they would not have existed otherwise."

You didn't answer my question. Do you agree than men need such shelters and if not, why not? And why did you choose not to answer that question? Do you care only about women, or men that need help too? Answer that please.

They are funded by local councils. Why would they do that if all they care about is subordination of women? Why do they not have zero shelters for men?

"How many shelters have anti-feminists set up for abused men or abused women?"

As I said, shelters are built by local councils. Is that part of the anti-feminist" power structure? Well if The Patriarchy is all about helping men, why have they built zero shelters for abused men? Seems to defeat the idea that the society is run by men for men, doesn't it? What an ideal way to stigmatize women, and they haven't spotted it.

I have know both men and women that have experienced domestic violence btw. The woman I know, despite having a history of relationships with obviously dangerous men, got help. The man, who had no idea his partner was going to be dangerous (BPD, he later found out_) just had to leave home and stay with friends.

As I said I have children of both sexes - if they either ended up with a violent partner I want them both to have resources to hand - and I'd want the law to treat the person that was violent towards them the same - which is not the case at the moment.

sybilbeddows little bit in love with you. make me laugh until theres a risk of wee escapage

I don't see that as an option anymore. Too many people are leaving that label behind because of what the radical fringe has done. I value men as much as women, and see a lot that both sides can do to help each other. I am egalitarian.

TinaLeena - if you really think that feminism is dominated by man-hating 'radicals', then maybe you're giving feminism a bad name... (just a thought).