AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

I said earlier that a study of the gender wage gap conducted by economist June O' Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for experience, education, and number of years on the job.

One of the ways we can help each other is to dispel the myth of the pay gap right away.

torn apart you say? that must have been painful

There you go-it is painful. A usual attack from bullies to make light of it. It may only be the internet, but it isn't a pleasant experience.

There are two rules it seems to me. If a man complains about a woman's housework standards there is hell to pay. If a woman complains about a man's housework standards he is 'wriggling out of it by not doing it properly'. Why is the woman even in charge? Why do they have to match anyone's standards other than their own? DH irons much better than me-I don't see why I have to come up to his standard.

They seems to gloss over abused men-a huge problem I would have thought because the numbers are not known-not many men would report it.

mayorquimby - I once saw a breakdown of why this happens. Amongst them, it was basically more than 50% just didn't have enough evidence. In word against word, what option is there? About 30% I think were charges withdrawn by the victom. Who knows why, perhaps it's because she is simply too terrified to relive the ordeal in court. I just don't have a solution for this.

Not enough evidence is often because the victim washes first. After that, the evidence is gone. They have to go straight there, and few people have the stomach to go straight to the police.

I wonder what the conviction rate is for rape against male victims? It does happen, you know. I can't see it being any higher, myself.

I find it ironic that the woman who claim to fight for womens rights are often the most rude posters to other women posters on here of all. Very odd...

Sorry I haven't answered people earlier. I am supposed to be working

TeenaLena. You're referring to the US study. I'm referring to the UK study, where controls are in place. The trouble with the gender pay gap is that while it is illegal to pay a man more for the same job, it's hard to enforce. In the public sector or any industry where there are structured pay grades, it's a lot more transparent and easy to control. In the private sector it is a lot harder.

MarySue I don't see a contradiction between saying I believe a large proportion of men are violent while at the same time saying I like men. That would be a bit like saying because I got beaten up by one black person that I assume all black people are violent and therefore I don't like any of them. You have to treat each man (indeed each person) as an individual. And yes, I accept women can be violent too, but even allowing for underreporting due to embarrassment and shame I think there are far fewer female abusers. I think abuse is wrong full stop. I think stamping out abuse towards women far more effectively is actually the first step to getting woman-to-man abuse out there, talked about and also stamped out.

TheAtomic I don't know what the proportion of violent men is in society overall as we can only extrapolate on figures. I hope it's not as much as half, I really do, but 2 women a week killed at the hands of their partners suggests it's a not insignificant problem by any means. Does that mean that those who are not physically abused are happy? I don't know. I don't know anything about people's individual relationships, but the degree of family breakdown in this country combined with the fact that 70% of divorces (I think) are initiated by women, suggests that many marriages are not great, at least not according to the woman's perception. Again, that doesn't mean I think ALL marriages are doomed. Far from it.

The patriarchy is not a living breathing thing but it is something whose whole is bigger than the sum of its parts, and you don't have to be man who believes women are inferior to perpetuate it. The way it has evolved as our society has developed means that our cultural norms sometimes place perfectly ordinary, decent people under pressure to uphold it, such as reverting to traditional roles following the birth of a baby, which can result in a woman's equality being compromise unwittingly. For example, the woman has to give up work and become primary carer because paternity leave is not as good as maternity leave, and then, by the time she's ready to go back to work the man's job has progressed meaning he has greater earnings, which result in it being the mother's job that has to be forced to fit around childcare, compromising her earning potential still further.

exotic - I tend to agree with you when it comes to some of the double-standards on MN re relationships. I find it infuriating when a woman seems to be allowed to get away with outrageous behaviour that will be excused seemingly because she is a woman. But I don't think that is down to feminism - in fact i think the opposite IMO. Treating women like fragile little flowers is sexist. Women deciding that they and only they know what's what in the home is sexist.

None of that, none of that at all, takes away from the fact that feminism is still needed and to reject it because you find some extremists unpleasant, is a denial of all that feminism has acheived and still can do.

TinaLeena wrote - "The right way to do it is to look at each profession and make the average between men and women, within that profession. Doing that, you can see that men and women make the same for that job."

TinaLeena wrote - "women earn 98 percent of what men do when controlled for experience, education, and number of years on the job."

So even by the statistics you have mentioned, a gender pay gap still exists. Men and women do not earn the same, contrary to what you claimed earlier.

TinaLeena wrote - "I value men as much as women, and see a lot that both sides can do to help each other. I am egalitarian."

So you will want to end that example of discrimination, won't you? Within your doctrine of egalitarianism, what do you see that men can do to help women overcome that pay gap?

Really? At least I post the truth on the matter. Compare that to the 70-80% difference that is shoved down the throats of anyone here in the U.S. going to Uni.

Besides...no has figured out what that 2% is attributed to or they would have corrected it already.

Sunshineandbooks, thanks for the response, though I'd like it if you could explain why if figures show more that roughly half of domestic violence is carried out by women

(and lets not pretend it's some harmless slap, my brother had scalding hot water poured over him while he was asleep, amongst other things - including being accused of domestic violence - she had a chapped lip! - that she tried to have him imprisoned for (so he couldn't see the kids if they divorced - they divorced and she still makes it very difficult for him to see his son)

then do you think there should be more than zero refuges for men. This is the third time I've asked you to answer that question, why won't you agree that would be fair? I thought feminism was about equality?

And again, you seem to be using the figure that 25% of women (worldwide? In Europe? I can't find that data, do you know?) have experienced abuse IN THEIR LIVES to extrapolate (randomly double the figure) that maybe 50% of men are violent. Hey, what if it's a small proportion of violent men responsible for those figures, each abusing maybe ten women in their life. Sounds reasonable? Because that would make the reported figure suggest that 2.5% of men are violent.

Open question - who think 50% of men are violent? Secondary question - is this the sort of guesswork that makes you uneasy about labelling yourself a feminist?

I'll answer first - no that figure is ridiculous. and yes, that's exactly the sort of statement that makes me not want to call myself a feminist.

you're not saying that all feminists are nasty just the man hating ones? so what your saying is that the majority of people think that the majority of feminists are man hating statistic waving doofuses and as such you do not wish to be labled as much. umm good for you? abandon your sisters because for image purposes? don't think so... also ecotic-couple-of-mangoes-from-a-fruit-basket think you'll find that teenleena is perfectly able to stand up for herself when it comes to being teased and that the odd joke is not bullying but essential to the debating process. people must not be allowed to take themselves to seriously or we'll all wind up in deep doo-doo. okay. have fun bye-bye!

shit! sorry about the spelling.. hurry fhurried!

BLOODY OCD! HERE IS HOW THAT POST SHOULD HAVE LOOKED: you're not saying that all feminists are nasty just the man hating ones? so what your saying is that the majority of people think that the majority of feminists are man hating statistic waving doofuses and as such you do not wish to be labled as much. umm good for you? abandon your sisters for image purposes? don't think so... also exotic-couple-of-mangoes-from-a-fruit-basket think you'll find that teenleena is perfectly able to stand up for herself when it comes to being teased and that the odd joke from sybilbeddows is not bullying but essential to the debating process. people must not be allowed to take themselves to seriously or we'll all wind up in deep doo-doo. okay. have fun bye-bye!

Higher up, didn't someone say the 46% of women have experienced "interpesonal violance" at some point, which is what sunshine is using, I think. I assume that means in any relationship and includes parents, siblings, even friends or housemates, I guess?

@BBW
It's okay about the spelling, I do it all the time.

Actually, I can do a lot more good working beside men and women who are interested in making real changes that help us all by NOT using the feminist label. It does not mean that am abandoning anyone, and I resent any impression that I am anti-woman because I CHOOSE to call myself egalitarian. That type of attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. As soon as a woman wants to move away from the feminist label, and dispel the commonly held misconceptions about society, they are automatically branded as a traitor to her sisters. Who the heck are you to try to define what I should and should not be?

tinaleena I was not trying to define who or what you are, simply illustrating how it might look from the outside... are you denying that the reason you don't want to be called a feminist is due to fears about how you may be regarded in wider society? coz i'm more or less paraphrasing you there. while i'm here BBW is frequently used as a term for larger women in porno.. i would be pleased if people would shorten the name to wolfie, but i'll leave that up to you.. since it doesn't bother me as much as tickle me...

bbw= big beautiful woman
bigbadwolf is a little on the large side but not a woman nor a beautiful one :( so... wolfie (if you please)

tinaleena please accept humble apologies if you felt as if i was attempting to define who or what you may or may not be... that really was not my intention. would you kindly clarify what you mean by commonly held misconceptions about society as i may have a further point re: that particular statement. thanks.

MarySue you haven;t asked me to answer any questions, let alone for three times. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

Of course I do not believe abused men should be prevented from having access to shelters. Nor do I know any feminists who would. I support shelters for men. But as a feminist I am campaigning about violence towards women. That does not mean I support violence towards men. If that was the case, you could argue that because I don't actively join any race rights group I am a racist!

By the way, I am sorry about your brother and I hope he has recovered well.

Again, I have already stated that I do not know what proportion of men are violent because domestic violence is a massively underreported crime, for victims of both genders. If you want to look at some statistics in the UK, try this link to Women's Aid, which contains PDFs you can download. I am simply using the Women's Aid's figure to talk about here in the UK.

I don't really care either, since I am not out to create straw arguments about labelling all men abusers, I just want to stamp out DV full stop. I can understand your somewhat aggressive POV because of what has happened to your brother, but the way to eradicating DV and improving the lives of men as well as women is not to deny it goes on. It's to confront it. Until violence towards women is taken seriously, violence towards men is going to remain the stuff of jokes I'm sad to say.

If you don't want to call yourself a feminist, don't. I'm not trying to make you do so. All I am doing is pointing out what I see as flaws in your arguments. Is't that what debate is about?

Oh, gosh.
I am sorry. I didn't think about the name thing , Wolfie.

And yes....as more and more discrepancies come out in with various things feminists have identifies as issues withing society (not saying there are not any issues, just that there is a lot of misinformation out there), there are more and more people who are reacting negatively to the feminist label. The vocal radical minority chooses to speak for the reasonable majority in a lot of cases, and I don't feel like fighting the stream in order for my voice to be heard.

I would much rather change society from a perspective that doesn't classify me at all, and has a broad base of acceptance based in reasoning, real mathematics, and the merit of individuals. Hence the egalitarian in me.

And yes...the movement is getting a bad name slowly but surely. Being associated with it is not the way to affect real change anymore. Not the kind of lasting change that doesn't invite a backlash like what the feminist movement is experiencing now anyway.

@Wolfie

Sorry I snapped at you, earlier. It's just I've heard so many similar things in the past, especially form my abusive mother. She was so angry when I told her the Gender Studies class I went to was anti-male and very biased.

TinaLeena - the movement's had 'a bad name' in many circles since it started (whenever that was...)
That's why intelligent people need to think about what feminism really is and means to them, not how it's apparently been hijacked by a bunch of crazies (which IMO isn't the case, and never was, but it's what a lot of 'anti-feminists' - i.e. misogynists would like you to think).
Sorry if I sound preachy, here. I just think it's worth thinking about.

tinaleena I see... is it fair to label the vocal minority as unreasonable? there was a time when that vocal minority did all they could in the face of hugely unreasonable stances held by many men and society in general... in lots of ways the feminist movement started the thing that you and others are now trying to finish. is it unreasonable that some may view your distancing yourself as an act of betrayal? would the fall of feminism and the decline in its image not owe something to its abandonment. in other words is this not simply becoming a self fulfilling prophecy?

don't worry about the bbw thing, your not the only one and it does tickle me. really have to go now...

but before i do... must say that the forums here are some of the best I've experienced.. other male dominated forums are horrid, nasty places to be. places where people seem to have forgotten even the most basic of civil manners and spend their time blowing their own trumpets until their faces turn red from effort rather than embarrassment at their own behaviour. yet another example of men cocking about.... how many centuries of male dominated politics and society have we had? perhaps it's time to let the girls have a pop... the very worst they can do is show that they are equally likely to get it wrong as we boys are, and if it goes well, perhaps this next century won't mirror the blood and fear of the last ay... ?

have a good weekend everybody!

tinaleena no worries i didn't take it as you snapping at me... simply that you were upset by my statements & concerned that I'd upset you that's all.

really do have to go now... if my friends new i was posting stuff on mumsnet they would mock me left right and center... best keep this stuff to myslef i guess.

What's the big deal? I would never say i am equal to a man.

I would never lower myself that much

The Spanish have this law which says that men must do an equal share of housework and childcare or the woman can ask for a divorce. Sounds fair to me. If you get pissed off with the old man just say he aint done enough washing up. Ideal!

BTW feminism affects all walks of life, not just about equal rights etc for wimmen. I rather like the feminist medical view for instance.