AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Your email sounds like you will waver, and I'm sure they'll pick up on that and try and manipulate you. You don't have to explain yourself at all.

Just say no, nothing more.

Never apologise, never explain

It totally fits this situation

Email has gone as follows:

Dear X,

I have thought long and hard since our convo on Sunday, and I am sorry but I just don't feel I can come tonight. I will undoubtedly be put under substantial pressure to bail DB out again, pressure which in my situation is not fair. Whilst I love DB dearly, and I wish to help and support him in any way that I can, I am not willing to jeopardise my own DCs future for this, and I cannot raise £50k for DB. Having looked at who is in a position to raise this sort of finance, the only option i see open is to contact Y & Z.

If you could get DB to give me a ring, Id love to speak to him and just see how he is doing.

Cheers
ninja

As has been mentioned, you need to look on your db financial problems as an addiction. I'm assuming if he were a crack addict, you wouldn't go out and buy him some more, if he were an alcoholic, I assume you wouldn't go and buy him a crate of vodka.

he has got a problem with money. By bailing him out, you are effectively making his problem worse, stoking the fires.

Also, you know you won't get the money back. ThatÄs your kids# money. When they want to go to uni are you going to turn around and say sorry, I can't help you, I gave all our money and sold all our land so uncle arse could piss it up the wall?

And I wouldn't be writing off the 150k either. YOu might not get it back, either in part or in total, but you should at least try.

Any do not even think of feeling guilty. If you ever think of wavering, think of your dc. They should be your priority.

"If you could get DB to give me a ring, Id love to speak to him and just see how he is doing."

Does he only call you when he wants something, then?

better, much much better

diddl, I think that is a given, don't you ?

anyfucker the really sad thing is i am actually a very good, highly thought of accountant, i just have massive issues with my family! Hopefully as my therapy resolves itself, I will be able to work out quite why I feel so guilt ridden about not putting them first.

If a client came to me and said what I had said on here, Id be like urm no! And i note i havent even got 1 person that thinks IABU. MAybe i should point DBs mum here

I know, I am sure you are a brilliant professional, FN, that was a bit naughty of me, but really, you do need a really good kick up the arse when it comes to your family

You bailed him out once - to do so again would be surely throwing good money after bad? Don't do it.

Well done Ninja. You've given them no toe-hold. Be very interesting to see how they respond!

Diddl I havent spoken to him since he came out of hospital. Ive only been able to speak to his mum. I just want to know hes OK. I want to know if hes actually expecting me to give him more money, or if its his mum!

He does usually ring when he wants something yes.

Fallen, DH, me and the other gullible fools who lent our "friend" a large wodge of unsecured cash are all successful and well thought of lawyers! No amount of professional nouse prepares you for the emotional blackmail pressure that goes hand in hand with these situations, especially where a suicide attempt is involved.

We acted quickly in an emergency but took the decision not to get the loan put in writing because of the suicide attempt (didn't feel we could shove a document under his nose while he was recovering, iyswim) but also because we thought the friend was an honourable man who would move heaven and earth to pay us back in the intended time (no more than a few months) which is how any one of us lenders would have behaved. We were wrong about his character. Dead wrong.

The fact that all of us who lent the money were struggling in one way or another at the time did not even register with this friend, just like it does not register with your brother. Only their overwhelming sense of entitlement registers.

In fact, in our case, our professions have worked against us, because every time we've tried to get the arrangement put in writing, we've been accused of using our professional expertise to pull a fast one/to put undue pressure on; even though the arrangements we've suggested don't particularly work to our advantage and put the "friend" in actually quite a strong position.

I'm sorry if I've been a bit forceful in my posts to you. I have found our situation extremely stressful and it's put a huge strain on my marriage and DH's relationship with his friends. Your situation is 100 times worse and I would hate for you to get in deeper. You sound like a truly lovely, caring person, and I just think you need to start looking after yourself and DCs and leave your family to sort out their own mess.

Very good for you for having the strength to say no. Just try not to capitulate, because they will come at you again, guaranteed. Good luck x

Well done, OP. Now don't budge from that stance. I read your first draft with a sense of impending doom!

In my experience, the problem with people who constantly need others to bail them out is that as soon as those other people start doing so, they start to think that they must be entitled to this help as others are willing to give it. So it is never enough. The more help you offer, the more help will be demanded and the less gratitude or recompense will come your way.

And it sounds like your brother already has a sense of random entitlement given his reaction to you buying the house. As another poster said, you didn't take anything from him - if anything you helped him out by effectively absolving him of responsibility for your father's housing situation.

Definitely don't give him or his mum anything else to latch onto - if you sort out the accounts they will just feel that you are conceding that you have some sort of responsibility towards the situation. It is much easier to say no up front than it is to start to help and then withdraw that help at a later stage.

As it states on here, this thread has 166 messages. NOT ONE poster thinks you should give the money! So PLEASE think of your children's future and stay strong! Good luck xxxx

I'm another who thinks that you email was very sensible. I'm another accountant and would eat my laptop if the £50,000 proved to be the only debt. In a similar situation a family member kept insisting that everything had been revealed except that more and more debts kept turning up. Some of these were silly small debts (not paying the window cleaner type of thing). Others were much larger such as a drawer full of unpaid parking fines adding up to thousands.

That you have emotionally written off the £150,000 is wise for your own peace of mind. My DH suggests that you keep the debt open just in case your DB wins the lottery!

The situation is a mess but not one of your making. I hope that there is a way through for your brother.

Well done, OP. The second e-mail is much better than the first.
Do not get involved in his company. It is trouble with Companies House, it probably owes HMRC, you've said that he has had his hand in the till, I'll bet the books are in a mess and will take ages to sort out. Imagine you were the Director when HMRC Investigations or the Insolvency Service come calling. Imagine you find proof of his wrong-doing and Money Laundering Regulations means that you have to report him (now there's a good get-out clause to prevent you getting involved )
Do not let your good name get involved with all that. Your time can be much better spent than getting implicated in his shady dealings. Keep away from it.

Agree with everyone else

Although I am confused where you would get the £50k from. You have a £300k mortgage on a house worth £350k - you're not going to get the bank to give you that extra happily these days. And if you have £50k in the bank you need to keep that for when interest rates start going up.

So you are in the cannot column because you don\t have the money!

Well I have missed a call from DBs mum. I was ignoring it putting the DC to bed. I have a voicemail demanding asking me to call her asap

Im not going to. Im tired, I shall give her a ring tomorrow and shall report back on the response.

Im also going to try sourcing some other help and advice for DB, because I would be gutted if he did something silly, and I think the posters on here who have said he needs more help than money being thrown at him are right.

Thanks all.

digging I have a plot of land. My DBs mum convienently knows someone who would purchase it from me for £75k and develop it. It currently has my shetlands roaming round it, and is adjacent to the house, but not included in the deeds as I got it after the house purchase. They are suggesting that I sell this, as i have been pondering what to so with it myself. Sell it & reduce my mortgage, develop it myself and get some rental from it to reduce my monthly mortage payments ... get another horse.

Im currently in the get another horse view point.....

stay strong

DO NOT SELL IT. Sorry to shout. DON'T ENGAGE WITH HER.

Remember the broken record technique - keep repeating the same thing "No" over and over if necessary.

"My DBs mum convienently knows someone who would purchase it from me for £75k"

Sorry, but to my suspicious mind that stinks. How does she know what it's worth? And how convenient that she knows someone who will buy it ... Do you actually want a development on your doorstep?

Oh I see.

Well given the size of your mortgage (as % of value) and given you are the kids sole provider I still think you are in the cannot camp.

Also, is this really the best time to sell the land? you could be doing yourself out of something there - and lets face it, you won't get the £50k back

My DH made it very clear to his family that once we had kids they were his number one priority and he would not be helping them out of situations. They
are your only priority financially

And if DB needs £70-80k to live off - well I think that says it all about how he got into that position. Sounds like his life would be cheaper without DW. Do they have kids?

[if you sell the land and buy a horse - where will you keep it!!