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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

578 replies

fallenninja · 28/06/2011 07:45

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

OP posts:
Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:03

senua i admit to the same thoughts

digging my thoughts exactly. I need the room for the extra two horse. Cant have my horses homeless now can I. Of course then I got the comment that I would see my DB homeless instead.

Sigh I really cant win against her. TBH shes not normally this bad, but it just seems that the more DB has gone downhill, the more irrationally protective of him she has become. I suppose I can understand, Im sure id do everything in my power to help my DCs if they were in a mess, but id like to think i wouldnt go to the lengths DBs mum has gone.

Its affecting everything though. It brought back the friction between my mum and her, as mums off on this whole how unreasonable rant and DBs mums like well its none of your business. My dad just cant cope. Its obviously distressing for him, and grrrr ... no I will not be guilted into doing something ...no no no

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 28/06/2011 21:09

get another gee-gee

it's a much safer bet Smile

diggingintheribs · 28/06/2011 21:15

The answer is

'no, his wife will see him homeless'

you don't have £50k gathering dust - sounds like the in laws may well do.

TandB · 28/06/2011 21:17

Your DB's mum can't have it both ways. If it is none of your mum's business (as your DB's step-mother) then it should be none of your business as his half-sister.

Sounds like she is only interested in input from those who have the means to make that input financial.

If you call her back do NOT make any concessions. Again, it will just serve to reinforce the feeling that you owe your DB something.

TandB · 28/06/2011 21:18

And yes. Get another horse. It will probably be more grateful for what you give it.

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:20

See the most annoying this is, that it (his house) was his house so im not sure how it became her house. He remortagaged several years ago to put down a deposit on a house for them to let out, but the company who own the buy to let house is set up in the name of the wife and her mother! To be honest I think hes been milked of all he has, and he was quite happy to pretend a lifestyle he didnt have .. hes a bit of a poser, always has been, and now hes in a mess.

OP posts:
TandB · 28/06/2011 21:22

There is some sort of stamp-duty avoidance thing that involves a company owning the house.

An accountant family member wanted to set it up for us when we bought our house but we were uncomfortable with it. It is legal but pretty close to the wind as far as we were concerned.

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:22

Wow that last post made more sense in my head! ... Try again ....

The house his wife has kicked him out of is his. Her name is not on the deeds. He had it before he met her, so surely if anyone is not living in the house it should be her. (they have no DC btw)

OP posts:
Teachermumof3 · 28/06/2011 21:23

Blimey-this woman is awful! She's earmarked you as her son's bank and is manipulating you until you cave. He's not your problem. Do you get on with your SIL? I can imagine her chuckling to herself as you hand over the £50k and she moves back into her temporary bankrolled existance. Does she work?!

I wouldn't even ring back to be honest- keep it to emails where you can stay level-headed.

Do not cave.

TandB · 28/06/2011 21:24

Or have they tried to put the house out of reach of any bankruptcy administrators?

octopusinabox · 28/06/2011 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:25

kungfu its not the company owning the house thats the problem, its that the deposit for it was with money from him house, yet there is no loan showing in the company for this money, nor is he part of the company. Now its possible that is because his credit would have screwed up the loan, but I cant help thinking hes been fleeced.

OP posts:
TandB · 28/06/2011 21:28

Sorry. I am getting in a right flap about this, having seen the way this sort of thing has played out in my DP's family.

Your DB's mother is not behaving reasonably. Her care for her son does not trump all other moral considerations. My PIL love their daughter but are currently in the process of working out how to make sure that she doesn't milk them for every penny they have in the event that she finishes up living back at home (complicated circumstances). They are certainly not hounding other family members to be on stand-by to sort out her mess, and MIL in particular is still mortified that DP bailed her out on the occasions that he did.

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:28

kungfu no this took place years ago before all this financial nonsense started. His wife is now denying she had the remortgage money for the deposit.

OP posts:
TandB · 28/06/2011 21:29

Ah. Probably not the stamp-duty dodge then. You might be right about his wife.

TandB · 28/06/2011 21:30

Sorry - I keep cross-posting. Does the wife have very savvy parents perhaps?

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:35

I suspect that she was advised to do it yes. Her mum matched the amount DB put in, and then took out the loan. DB let them, so its his own stupid fault. I would have advised against it, but then we werent speaking so I couldnt help him (ninja flays herself with the guilt stick again)

I dont know his wife very well. Ive met her maybe 15 times in the last 5 years. They live 20 mins away. She had regularly stayed sitting in the car, when DB has popped in to see dad. Maybe DB is a terrible husband, maybe she has been planning an exit for years, i dont know, but I can see he is going to walk away with nothing. It might break him, but I dont know what I can do. I know what people are asking me to do, but I dont think its the right help.

OP posts:
TandB · 28/06/2011 21:37

The problem with the house is that it sounds like the wife might actually have managed to salvage something from a disaster, whether by malice or good foresight. If he goes bankrupt and the house is his asset he would presumably lose it.

senua · 28/06/2011 21:42

Disagree with octopus. Do not have 'many replies and advice' printed off ready by the phone. Just have one:

Concentrate on mental health, don't get sidetracked into talking money.

Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:44

True. Im just cross, but then im being silly. If it was his asset, hed only borrow the money on it and then waste it away as he has the rest. His wife is probably being more sensible saying jog on, and walking away. I couldnt live with someone who deals with money as he does ......

OP posts:
Original poster
fallenninja · 28/06/2011 21:48

teacher im definately not going to ring tonight. (have another missed call). Not sure about tomorrow, i just dont trust myself with the whole guit tripping, DBs death could be on my shoulders, poor DB he tries so hard and just gets stomped on, whereas you always had everything so easy crap.. id probably cave. Im tempted to hot foot it to a lawyer and get the land tied up in some sort of trust for the DC if possible so i cant give it to her Smile

OP posts:
Teachermumof3 · 28/06/2011 21:48

I'd also be annoyed that she's obviously been talking about selling your plot of land to all and sundry! I'd buy three new horses...

TandB · 28/06/2011 21:55

Four! At least!

And I am a lawyer and I am formally advising you NOT to hand over a penny.

[stern look]

ShoutyHamster · 28/06/2011 21:58

Well done fallen - SO glad you sent the second email and not the first!

I'm utterly gobsmacked and Angry at your DB's mum. It's sad to say that, family she might be, but you can so tell that you're not HER daughter... no, you'll see no love, protection or family feeling there - it's all for HER son, and his sister can just get trampled on in the process...

She (and he) see you as a cash cow. Sad but true. It's horrible. This has really shown what happens when the chips are down, eh?

My suggestion for your conversation with her tomorrow is to start finding that Mummy Tiger anger. Basically, what she's asking - no, hang on, demanding, as you said - is that you take your childrens' security away from them and hand it to her son, for no other reason that she would like that to happen because her little boy is more important than your children.

But I reckon your opinion differs on that, doesn't it? Grin

So tomorrow, when the conversation about selling the land starts, you put that to her. In a suitably Getting Quite Fucking Angry Now tone (because the aim is to get her to see that the worm has turned and she had best Back The Fuck Off!)

'No I am NOT selling that land. Do you know what that land represents? It's the university fund for my children. MY CHILDREN. Do you know WHY it has to represent that? Because ten years ago I gave 150K to YOUR SON, and as a result I have a loan I'll be paying off for years with the money I'd have otherwise saved for their futures. I want this to be the last conversation on this subject, because I will tell you now that there is no way I will sacrifice my children to bail out yours - yet again. And that's without even starting on the fact that both you and I know that any bail-out is going to be a waste of money. I made that mistake once, I'm not going to make it again. And if you want us to have any relationship at all after this, you might do well to have a think about what our family has ACTUALLY DONE for DB, before you start feeling hard done by on his behalf. I can't believe that you can honestly think I might be responsible for him in place of his own wife, for a start. You commented that it's none of Mum's business, well it's none of mine either, to be brutally honest. If you really want to help him, let him go bankrupt and stop acting like the entire world owes him a living. It doesn't, that's why he's in the mess he's in YET AGAIN. He can't keep his fingers out of the till, he can't live within his means, and he's certainly got no sense of loyalty to me or his DNs. And I don't want to talk about this any more. Goodbye.'

Get angry, fallen - this is your chance to break out of that 'financial scapegoat' role. You're half way there, and making it clear once and for all is going to improve things no end I reckon. You mention your therapy in this area - this looks like it could be a bit of a breakthrough in your relations with your family, the crisis that shakes everything up. Ok, you might not see your brother for dust after this, or his using mother, but I don't think that's such a tragedy, to be honest. For yourself, your self-esteem, your family's seeing that you will put THEM first - it's all good.

:)

cuddlysmurf · 28/06/2011 21:58

ninja well done on the e-mail, and leave phone contact up to your DB to initiate, since you have opened the door for that route - you could also e-mail him in a couple of days offering signposts to getting practical help with his mental health stuff.

He is your brother who is a grown adult and has treated your family in a despicable way to support his "beyond reasonable means" lifestyle. He is not a child who has lost his pocket money and come crying to you for more . . . . he will not starve even if he is bankrupt, and he will not end up homeless (for any length of time). He is not your responsibility.