AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Ninja, you'll regret it for the rest of your life if you lend him this money, please don't do it. And if he cared for you like you care for him he wouldn't even have asked once, never mind twice, never mind defaulted on the loan. You owe him nothing. He's made his bed and needs to lie on it.

I wouldn't dream of putting my brother in this position. I'd be ashamed to and would rather go bankrupt.

KFP is right. In insolvency terms (I'm an insolvency lawyer) it's called "transactions defrauding creditors" and it would be unwound by the court. The same thing applies in family law. Imagine a husband who "gave" the family home to his brother in the middle of a divorce to put it out of the reach of the wife. Court would look pretty dimly on it. There's your get out.

Ninja you need to harness that anger in some of your mist recent posts.

Also, whilst it's not terribly nice in a family sort of way, you do realise that if you haven evidence of the loan of £150k to your bother, you could make him bankrupt for it? Would take guts, of course, but you'd be perfectly entitled to do so. Your "D"B should IMVHO be bloody grateful you haven't done so already.

As my DH would say, Bastards!

That's very interesting news from the insolvency lawyer.

I'd speak to his mother and say your solicitor has informed you that even if you wanted to (which you don't-as you don't think that would help him) you cannot sell your strip of land during your court case (which could go on for aaaages) so you are unable to help (and only have £30 a month to live off) and she will have to bugger off and find someone else to fleece.

Ninja

It comes down to this.

If you really love your DB don't give him money or assist him to access any funds.

His life will not improve in the medium/long term unless you can be strong for him now when he is so weak.

Ninja hope you are ok.

Does anything from the following link sound like DB's mother? (You may not be her daughter, but that does not mean you can't be scapegoated in the golden child/scapegoat dynamic)

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com

I am going to add my voice to the cacophony of those who are saying "DON'T DO IT!!!!!"

You would just be pandering to a gambler's vice: allowing him (and/or his mother) yet one more roll of the dice before losing the shirt off his back again. All you are doing is prolonging the agony - and risking your own future and that of your children. For nothing.

No, strike that: for less than nothing. You would be harming your brother, not helping him, by digging him out of this hole, of his own making, yet again.

You mention your father learnt from his bankruptcy. Your db has never had to learn from his mistakes because other people have taken the pain for him. That's why you are paying out £700 extra a month - you are taking his pain so he doesn't have to face the consequences.

Make him.

Xales put clearly a niggle I couldn't quite put my finger on - "Are you being made to feel guilty because your dad separated from your B's mum, are they blaming you for this and hence the you owe everything attitude from them?"

That corresponds to Ninja's post -"So why is this not enough? Why am I being made to feel it is not enough. I am allowing them to do that. I am allowing myself to be made to feel guilty and i must stop"

And Ninja, you spoke of how your brother was when your parents broke up. You said he was 'there for you'. I wonder if, all your life, you have been reacting to their unspoken resentment in the way that children so heartbreakingly do, by taking the guilt on themselves and trying to please the adults, to 'earn' their love. Maybe your brother threw you a few crumbs of affection, and you, poor child, were so grateful as to be blinded. Not your fault. They were the adults, you were the child. But this sort of scenario is the only way I can explain your undeserved guilt in respect to your father's first family (can't bring myself to call them your family any more). As the 'first' family, they feel entitled. And you are the 'second' family, so you 'owe them'. Does this make any sense?

You have so much on your plate right now.

And these bastards are piling on more.

For your children's sake, and your own sanity, cut yourself free from these people. For all the reasons already posted, bankruptcy is in your brother's best interests. And his mother deserves no consideration on your part, for it is her fault that you have been made to feel guilt towards your brother (probably from a very young age), and that must stop.

Your get-out with respect to helping run or wind up the business: against professional regulations / your employers don't allow this.

No idea if true (any accountants out there?), but plausible.

AF, hope you're wrong.

The £150k is much more than that in debt, eg on our mortgage we pay back £1.50 for every £1 borrowed, which would make the value £225k.

Sometimes changing the perspective of the situation can make difficult situations easier to deal with. So for example imagine it's not you and your brother but a friend and you are representing your friend and follow the advice you would give your friend. Sounds crazy but it might just give you the courage to tell them to leave you be.

No, I have faith in Ninja. She will not cave!

No, I don't think she will.

Can you distance yourself sufficiently from the emotional side of this and simply regard this woman as a rather weird animal whose behaviour you are studying out of curiosity. Just watching her from time to time and seeing what this strange bag of bones will come up with next. Like scientists study primates? It might end up being quite amusing.

I don't think you'll cave in.

Nothing more practical to add here, but I agree you and your DCs should just go and get away from it all for the weekend (presumably DB's mum doesn't have your mobile??).

I have faith in you Ninja - although my heart was in my mouth when reading the thread this morning (a few days late) and I thought you were going to send the original version of your email!!

Slight hijack - Kungfu have you always been so good at this kind of thing or just since your No Reversing episode(s)?!

I suspect that 'guilt' feeling you feel is actually 'fear'.

And where's there's fear - the outrage and anger won't come up.

I think Ninja knows she cannot/should not help her DB financially, but it's extremely difficult to stand up against the emotional pressure to "be a good sister/familymember". They are guilting her into helping. Maybe we can all think of reasons/arguments/evidence that she really is a good person and that she can use to counter the guilty feelings? Like a mantra?
I'll start with:

Ninja, you're a good mum, because...
you provide your DCs with a nice family home
you fight for your DCs in court
you have a nest egg for their future
(and you need all your assets for your children)

You are a good daughter, because...
you provide your dad with a nice family home
you care for your dad while he is ill

You are a good sister, because...
you already help your brother each month with 700 pounds
you still talk to your brother (!)
(and you haven't brought him to court for defaulting on his loan!)

[Jumps up and down excitedly] The insolvency lawyer said I was RIGHT! you know what this means? I am actually capable of applying some of the general legal principals I learned in law school and reaching a logical conclusion! I was fairly convinced I just learned random bits of law and occasionally got lucky when they turned out to be relevant.

[Hugs self] I'm a REAL lawyer. I am! I am!

Anyway, as you were.

Ninja won't cave. I know she won't.

Minniebar - I have always been not bad at letters as it gives you time to think about what you want to say. I am a bit hit and miss in real time as sometimes I am overtaken by speechless rage. And sometimes I gibber.

Still, I want you on speed-dial for any random tricky occasion, if that's alright?

I am an Insolvency Practitioner, and apologies but I've only skim read the 17 pages of posts. Practical points that I hope will help:

• If you become involved in your brother's business and it fails, you will have to declare it on your annual conduct return to your regulatory body, and it may affect your ability to practise as an accountant

• Bankruptcy may be the best solution for your brother. I would suggest that he goes to see an Insolvency Practitioner, who can properly advise him on his options. There are many myths surrounding bankruptcy, and it may help to know what the actual effect would be. Most firms offer an hour of free advice. Bankruptcy can be the best option in some cases.

• Didn't see from skim-reading why the business needs bailing out, but am wondering whether it is actually viable

Horrible position for you to be in, you have my sympathy, but it's his problem and he's a grown man. Give practical and emotional help, but not financial if you can't afford to lose any more money

"Ninja won't cave. I know she won't."

I know she won't too.

kungpupanda, your excited response has got me worried now. Have you got self-esteem issues, too?

And, see, fallenninja, it happens to everyone...

Oops, I meant kungFU, not pu!

Bedtime, methinks.

Sleep well, all!

Well, I hope ninja has disappeared off to a nice quiet spot with her kids and is completely uncontactable, to return rested and refreshed on Monday.

Ninja, hope you are far away with your kidlets!

Whole-heartedly agree with all other posters. But must add my tuppence as well.

I think I read that your Dad declared bankruptcy and prior to that he was similar to DB but the bankruptcy forced him to sort himself out? (apologies if memory is distorted) This is a good thing! I can only hope that a bankruptcy would be a good thing for your DB as well. Perhaps if he became a wage slave, he might appreciate how difficult money is to come by and then fully grasp what a fab sister you actually are! And perhaps he could evolve into the person you thought he was/is.

My MIL finds herself in a similar position to you - she re-mortgaged her home to help a friend, who subsequently pissed off and left her holding all the cards. She is now retired, but paying the interest on the mortgage still. When she dies, instead of an inheritance, DH and SIL will need to sell her house to cover that bastard's thievery. Please, please, please do not end up like my MIL!

Please please please stay strong. There are a miriad of personal and professional reasons why YANBU. I am a professional person (law). I was utterly delighted to be admitted to my professsion. Would I jeapordise that for my waster of a brother...? Well, no. Actually, my bro is not a waster but ykwim.
I love my family and they love me. I am truly sorry but it doesnt sound to me like you can say that. What concerns me in all this is, who has your back? Where is your dad, mum, YDB? Who talks up for you? Baby crying. Gotta go. YANBU xx

Well I´m also hoping that Ninja is away rather than with family being coerced.

You´ve already done too much a lot financially.

You´ve looked into a job for him & will give him somewhere to live if necessary.

If that´s not support, then I don´t know what is!

Logged on early hoping Ninja had called by to say she's ok. I don't think I've ever felt so fearful for someone I've never met. Ninja I do hope you are ok (fervently hoping you have woken up on this beautiful morning in your caravan with your lovely DCs, and are too busy frying sausages on the camping stove and planning a weekend of lovely adventures to talk to us lot). Stay strong.