AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Ninja the script being played out now is probably the same one that's gone on all your life. Perhaps not to do with money or anything factually similar to the current situation. But emotionally and within your family dynamic, this has been going on and on. I know I don't know you so it's a huge leap to extrapolate this from your posts, but I just don't believe the play being acted out here came out of thin air. This script has been written for years.

The way they are talking makes it sound like it's your brother's birthright to be the successful one. You were never meant to be the one to make it, I bet. You are the first born child of your father's new marriage. I wonder if you in some way were made to feel like your brother's usurper? Maybe not deliberately but a child can pick up on all sorts of subtle hints. I imagine there's a lot of buried resentment there about the way you are treated. Always bailing the family out, yet always second best when care and consideration is being doled out. The way you talk makes it sound, on the one hand, like you don't feel you deserve your own success - because it was never meant to be you being successful in your family dynamic; on the other, that you know full well this is another incidence in a long line where you have taken the brunt of responsibility for family fuck ups. I mean, read your thread title, for goodness sake! Those are the words of someone who's reached the end of the line.

You are a donor child as far as your DB's mother is concerned. You are there to be harvested to save her son and to save her. You are not a person in your own right. Your children, their needs, their future means nothing to them.

You can end this and cut them off. You've got your own mother, your dad and your DCs. That's a lot of love and support going for you (not to mention enough on your plate). You don't need your DB or his mum in your life. I know you love your DB, but this is not about love, this is about being made to feel a duty that is not yours. Love is unconditional, it doesn't depend on you getting your cheque book out. Your love, it appears, is a one way street. Hopefully your DB will get well and realise his mistakes and thank you for your help and for not further fuelling his addictions. But in the meantime, he does not love you with any true meaning of that word. His addiction and sense of entitlement won't let you. Addicts only truly love the thing they are addicted to, it means more to them than anything else.

CUT THEM BOTH OFF BEFORE THEY DRAG YOU DOWN WITH THEM.

(I've been there, have similar family dynamics. I've tried to help (also large financial handouts), it's never enough. I cut mine off for my own sanity, you can too. The bastards made me believe that love meant boundary-free giving and expecting nothing in return, no love, no caring. That's partly why we ended up in the mess with DH's friend we have gotten into, I ignored my own alarm bells.)

[makes a What Kalinda Said Too placard and waves it vigorously.

That's a very sensible post by Kalinda there-I totally agree. Also-if I was your mother, I'd be absolutely fuming at this woman.

Does your brother's mum feel that when your dad left them, met your mum and hdad you-that he gave you all sorts of advantages that he didn't give his first son? That might explain why they think you 'owe' him? Did your dad pay for years at university for you to train therefore your accountant's salary is somehow unfair?

Totally agree with the donor child though. You will never win-they will bleed you dry and it will still be your fault when it all goes wrong. The ending won't be any different for your brother if he goes bankrupt now or in 10 years, but you can avoid being sacrificed in the process.

ninja, as you have found to great personal loss, giving money to your DB does not help him or anyone else at all. The type of help he needs is not financial. Offer your knowledge and support, but that's all. Any money you give him may be enough for now, but he'll be back in a few years needing more unless he gets proper help to deal with his spending and MH issues.

I have been lurking on this thread since the beginning but have not posted because everyone seems to be able to say everything better than I could.

However I am now going to shout -

YOUR CHILDREN COME FIRST and again YOUR CHILDREN COME FIRST!!

You have said very little really about your own children and their life now or their future. It has all been about what you feel for your (D)B; do I take it that you love him MORE than your children? I am sure this is not the case butit does begin to read that way.

Sit them in front of you whilst you ponder the whole of this thread - do they really mean LESS to you than your(D)B?

YOUR CHILDREN COME FIRST

I was reading something today which you might find interesting.

It contained this passage,peculiarly appropriate for your circumstances:

"Japan?s example from the 1990s suggests that keeping so-called zombie borrowers alive leads to extremely poor economic outcomes. It ties up banking capital that would be better used supporting sustainably profitable businesses, as well as distorting competition throughout the economy."

Economically, your brother is screwing up his business partners, employees and competitors. It highlights how your brother's situation hurts people even far beyond the family, so if you find it hard to get angry on even your own DCs' behalf, maybe it will feel better to do an impersonally right thing, from which you do not benefit directly - since you obviously feel you do not deserve benefit.

Definitely work on your sense of entitlement, as you are being pressured to do something which is wrong in every way and for everyone, even the man your "step"mother is pretending to want to help. She is a liar and a fraud, and is - as many people have so astutely said - hurting your brother. You would be doing the world a favour to shut her down.

Oh, no, forgot the link!

blogs.reuters.com/jim-saft/2011/06/28/the-unbelievable-mercy-of-uk-banks/

Oh and another thing - you say you are going through family court proceedings with your ex. Does this involve any financial issues?

If so, I can't imagine the court would be delighted if you put yourself in a worse financial position by voluntarily handing over money to your DB.

I have 3 db's and non of them would ever expect me to do anything like this, nor would my parents.

If you help him everything you have worked hard to acheive will be wasted. Your life will go the same way as his from making ill advised choices.

I dont believe for one moment you seriously think it is a good idea to give him any money.

The best thing to do for all concerened is to wrap his business up and for you DB to find other work to support himself.

I've been praised by the Panda, this could be my Mumsnet Moment! Seriously, though, KFP, your advice here has rocked, I wish I'd worked with lawyers like you, I may not have left the profession so damned disillusioned.

Listen to her, OP, listen to ShoutyHamster and every other person on this thread. Get away with your lovely DC, get as far away from that poisonous bitch as possible, physically, emotionally. Do not be available for them. Stay strong and keep coming back to this thread if you feel you are wavering. Everyone is rooting for you.

Have not read every single post but...

You said in your last but one post you have life inhertance policy that should cover your kids if anything happens....

Where do you think your kids might end up I imagine at university etc with homes of their own. If you sell this land now (for probably less than it's true market worth), you will have very little option to help them out, put some towrards uni fees or their first home.

They are ALREADY suffering because of your db's actions, If you had the £700 pounds a month you pay for his debt, you would be able to clear your soliciotrs bills easily and most importantly YOU wouldbe a lot less stressed.

Please do not waver - Do not even consider working for his business. What happens then if it does go under (entirely proable if he is unfit for work for any length of time). You would be left with no job and a ridiculous mortgage to service. There is every chance you could lose your home again.

Stay strong and think of the land not as yours but as your children's future...

Just read Plupervert's post. That is a very good point. Allowing your DB to go back into business is allowing him to screw so many other people. How many employees' and creditors' lives/businesses has he already damaged and destroyed with his arrogance and irresponsibility? How many will he again if you give him help again. Once again, these are real people with real lives who mean fuck all to your DB and his mother. Don't give them the chance to screw others over like they've screwed you over.

Everyone has said such good things I don't know if this will be of any use, but from the emotional side I would say you grow up in a certain way in a family and this becomes your normal and you don't realise when what you're doing/expected to do isn't normal. On a tiny tiny scale only when dh had counseling did both of us realise it wasn't normal for his mum to ring him at work every day, some things you just get used to and it seems ridiculous now we even thought of that as normal. Of course when he told her to stop she accused him of not caring and wanted to know if she was ever allowed to ring and actually stopped ringing at all even though he'd said evenings and weekends were fine.

It is not normal to bail out an adult family member for that amount of money, it's really not, and it's especially not normal to be expected to do it all over again when they fuck up again. It's not normal to be asked to essentially do someone else's job when they are unable as if you're not an autonomous person with a life of your own but merely an extra to be called upon. It's not normal for adults to be treated like children and for mummy to pressure people to bail them out instead of taking the consequences of their own actions and learning from it.

You are a person in your own right, not a monetary extension of someone else, not a employment extension of someone else. You feel bad because you've been trained to through emotional manipulation, and you feel bad because you're a good person. But we all feel bad about things, I feel bad when I tell ds off, especially if he feels bad about the thing himself and so me telling him off makes him more hurt, but I have to do it because it's the right thing to do. Accept you feel bad, but this doesn't mean you are a bad person or that you are the guilty party and need to make amends.

Sorry, went on a bit there. It's just shit when you're emotionally manipulated in a family and it takes a long time to get over.

The problem is that he keeps getting himself into a fix and everyone runs around to bail him out. He has to learn to take responsibility for him self. I think you shouldn't offer any financial support but help him in every other way. Also keep your building plot - that yours.

Kung-Fupanda- that is genius!

Ninja- there is your guilt-free response. The court proceedings mean that you are not allowed to transfer any assets.

When proceedings are finalised- don't tell your family.

By the time it's over they'll have found a solution.

Just remmber:

• your brother is his own responsibility

• your children's needs have to come first.

I have just read this incredible thread. Excellent advice everyone, I won't add anything more as what I will say has been said already. Just wanted to send you a big hug and say that I think you're one hell of a mother, daughter and sister. Please look after yourself and your DC. Kudos!

This is one of those quite frightening threads, in which I am actually quite worried for the outcome.

There is so much at stake, and caving in could really cause hell for a lot of people who don't deserve it.

Caving in would not do any good; in fact it would do harm:

• Your brother would continue as before, get no mental help because "the money will sort it all out"
• your brother would, by contrast, continue to be under pressure to spend for his mother and wife, and be under pressure for a business people have rightly pointed out he cannot cope with.
• Your brother's mother would be encouraged to do this to you again and again, and why would you want to reward such behaviour?

Meanwhile:

• you would lose money and emotional investment in your court case
• your DC would lose more money and security
• you could lose your job and reputation if you "worked for" your brother

Refusing the money (in fact, insisting on being a creditor for £150,000 - what an excellent idea about suing him - a pity that option is emotionally impossible for you!) is the right thing to do in every way.

There are laws governing insolvency and bankruptcy in this society because it is wrong and uncivilised to make people end their lives (literally or figuratively) if they run out of money. There is protection available for insolvents and the bankrupt. There is protection for the less well off in our society. There is mental help to try to repair the problems which got insolvents/bankrupts into their situation (because it makes sense to rehabilitate people and lives).

It's in society's interests to impose restrictions and protect creditors, yes, but also to salvage the person. Therefore, insolvency/bankruptcy is not the end; it can't be. It can be the beginning of a new life, one which would be a much better one for your brother than the shitty one he's got now.

Your children SHOULD be the centre of your world.

Your original family - mum, dad, brother are no-longer the centre of your world.

Your responsibilities are to your children - that's how it works.

Let the adults deal with their own problems - stop being a carer to your original family. They are no longer the centre of your world.

And do not put your children's needs second - your job is to provide for your children, and not your brother.

And your brother and family is more ROBUST than you give him credit.

They don't need you to take care of them - it's not your job.

If I were you I would go through this thread and take done some notes of all the very good reasons people have given you NOT to give him money. You can carry them around with you and refer to them every time you feel yourself feeling guilty again. Might also be a good idea to take some notes to your therapist as well. I always find that writing things down and reading them over and over helps get stuff clear in my head.

Another lurker saying don't give your db ANY money for any purpose (including to pay for him to get "help"). He and his dm are leeches and, as others have said, think of your dc's.

Nor should you give him any support in the business, not even in winding it up. Surely this could lead to potential issues for you as a professional? What if, for example, in the course of it all going wrong with the business he has been up to dodgy things, eg with tax, and you discover this. You could be implicated or put in a position of having to tell the authorities.

Have you spoken to your db? He may well not even want any more from you given all that you have lost already. If he does, then agree with others that, though very sad, you'd be better off avoiding him and his dm.

I also agree about the brilliant advice on this thread. Ninja, just one point about your life insurance. As has been said, this only pays out if you die. If you were to find yourself in my situation, you would need more liquid assets for your DCs. My DH and I are both suffering from chronic illness and he has already been forced to stop work - I may also have to do the same very soon. DS2 is at Uni and our DS1 is disabled and may never work. In other words, you have no idea what the future holds - you may need the money from your land for you DCs at any time. Please keep them at the forefront of you mind in this awful situation!

Nothing more to add to the excellent advice offered, but just another voice reminding you that £150,000 is an enormous amount of money. They might regard it as 'unearned' in terms of being part of the increased value of the house but who knows what will happen to the property market? Or if you could even sell your house, if it came to that? The additional £700 you're paying on your mortgage each month to service the loan is actual cash, coming out of your salary that you've spent years studying, training and working to achieve. Being a grown-up, in other words.

Snowblindness can set in when figures like this get bandied around, especially in emotional family settings, but for the sake of saying it again, A HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS is an extraordinarily generous sum to loan a sibling, let alone give. That should have been life-changing. It wasn't - because he didn't address the bits of his life that needed changing. Doing the same again will have no different effect.

As for not telling you he'd defaulted on the payments when you were pregnant, risking your own house - truly, that shocked me. Someone whose life is sufficiently out of control that he can do that to his own sister needs more than financial help.

This kind of all seems to hang on the success or otherwise of your DB's business - thats his income potential, thats what he stands to lose...but I am getting from your mentions of it that its not being run well and a lot of this money has gone and subsidising a failing business as wella s af amily living beyond their means.

Ok, at the moment after a suicide attempt its not the ideal time, but can he get a normal, wage paying job....that might give him a lot more sucurity esp financially than running his own business (which I'm getting the feeling he is doing badly)

I hate to say it, but I reckon ninja is still going to cave, despite the unanimous outrage on this thread that her family have any right at all to put any kind of pressure on her