AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Hello everyone.

Thank you so much for all your posts. I have been dwelling on it all this morning (been at soft play with the DCs as school is on strike) and I just seem to be getting more upset, whereas I know i should be getting angry. Im trying to work out why I see this as my repsonsibility to solve. I understand why other people cant and wont do it, but why do I feel then that I need to be the one to do so?

Its something I think I need to work out, because I am practical enough to realise that unless I can anaylse out and get rid of this feeling, I am going to end up helping, and that is the wrong thing for me to do. I have left a message for my counseller to ring me to see if I can have an appointment with her sooner.

Last time, I had reservations about lending the money but I felt it would help, and obviously I didnt have DC then, and really had no thought for the implications of what if it goes wrong. I never even considered that DB would default and leave me in the lurch really. I just assumed he would pay. This time i obviously know it is throwing money at him, yet I still want to believe he is the brother I imagined last time, who will look out for me and do the right thing. He wont and I obviously need some help accepting that.

I am going to ignore any phone calls for a few days, and get my head around what I am willing and not willing to offer and then am going to get a solicitor to write to them for me. I honestly dont want this to cost me my brother again, especially if he is going through a really rough time, but my DCs must come first. Ive asked my younger brother to report back on how DB gets on at his appointment today.

I just feel so hurt by it all. My dad understands where I am coming from, and he thinks it would be unwise lending the money, but he is leaning towards me running the business for DB, but he also realises how hard that would be once DB starts getting involved again, because I just get overruled all the time. I think if family rift opened up he would side with me, but I know how hard it would be for him.

Ill try and have a read back now and see if ive missed anything important that needs answering.

Don't forget that this is all coming through the prism of DB's mother. Don't do anything on her say-so. Get in direct contact with DB himself (after seeing your counsellor).

ninja your most recent post indicates that your entire family only accepts you as a member if you buy into it- if you want to you along with that it's up to you but they will bleed you dry. Whatever you do won't be enough. And remember your DCs have no options other than you, they are your priority in family terms.

Your DBs family are acting as though you are the only person in the entire world with access to money.

Incommunicado and solicitor both good ideas.

Stay strong, Ninja !

You sound like you're going to help him financially. Is that really going to help him??

'This time i obviously know it is throwing money at him, yet I still want to believe he is the brother I imagined last time, who will look out for me and do the right thing. He wont and I obviously need some help accepting that.'

Yes, please do get that help. You are dangerously close to sacrificing your own childrens' future for a man who has not the slightest concern for you in return. He is in no way the brother you imagine or want to have. His mentality is such that he isn't capable of feeling the feelings you have right now. You are undermining yourself and your own children. Get help.

'I am going to ignore any phone calls for a few days, and get my head around what I am willing and not willing to offer and then am going to get a solicitor to write to them for me. I honestly dont want this to cost me my brother again, especially if he is going through a really rough time.'

Please, read again the core point that everyone is making. OFFERING MONEY IS PUTTING A NOOSE AROUND HIS NECK. This isn't just about how your brother has no right to take your children's money. This is actually about how best to help a clearly sick man whose own mother appears to be making his predicament worse. The BEST HELP for your brother, the BEST WAY TO STOP THIS CYCLE is to offer NOTHING AT ALL. Your words above show that despite what everyone on here is saying, and the real-life examples that have been provided, you are still almost automatically assuming that actually giving money does mean help. Everyone here is advising that he go bankrupt, the ONLY person who isn't is his mother. Increasingly it's looking like she's his worst enemy. Hey, here's an experiment. The comparison has already been made between your DB's uncontrollable compulsion to spend and the actions of someone drug addicted. Would you ever say this:

'I am going to ignore any phone calls for a few days, and get my head around how much heroin I am willing and not willing to source for him... I honestly dont want this to cost me my brother again, especially if he is going through a really rough time.'

He NEEDS to go bankrupt, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that if someone with their head actually screwed on (i.e. you) doesn't make that happen and stop this cycle, there will be a next time and a next time until he really DOES do something stupid. It's tough love. Please find the courage to not 'help' in this pointless way and put your own future and children even more at risk.

Arrrgghhh just wrote a message for it to tell me it was offline.

I intend not to help him financially. I need to stay away, else I know I will cave. Its hard, but I need to hold my DC at the front of my mind. The problem is instead of just saying no, I say no because x y z. Then I get told why x, y and z are wrong, and if I instead did a, b, c then I could do whatever it is I am trying to be pressured persuaded into doing.

Maybe start thinking of it as your childrens' money, rather than your own. Would that help? God, ninja - they need you to be there for them and strong for them far more than he does...

How diffiicult is it to stay away? If you don't answer the phone/door and don't go round and see them-that should help a bit! If she still manages to get through to you-I'd phone the police and report her for harrassment!

You know that you are saying 'no, because of xyz' then don't say it. Just say-no, I'm not prepared to help him, goodbye.

x-posts!

Yes. Stay away. Get hold of that therapist, and completely shut them out. Go away for a week if necessary, stay with a friend...

You do know, don't you, that as soon as your DB's mum finally gets it that the bank of ninja has ceased trading, you'll suddenly be hearing all about how they actually realised that his wife's parents should of course be told ... and they are now all talking about a package of help .... She will move on to someone else if you keep your resolve to stay out of this. This isn't about family, this is about a complete con-woman trying to rip someone off. You'll be discarded once they realise you're not going to be of use to them and they'll move straight on to working on the next most likely source of funding. Awful thing to say, but watch and see that it's not true.

Why would it "cost you your brother again"?

Will he ignore you if you don´t help?

Actually you know I am disgusted at myself. I need a bloody good slap. I have thrown away a massive sum of money at him. It caused us to stop talking for years. We only started again after grandad died. Over the years the resentment sort of faded, and then the rift sort of just stopped. Ive lost sight of the fact that the £700 a month is his debt. Because its on my mortgage I think of it as my mortgage, but its his debt. What could I do with £700!!! However if I think like that I will become bitter again. Do I want that? Yet now I am being asked to throw away the one remaining asset ive got at him. It shouldnt matter that I have a life insurance policy so the DCs would be Ok without inheriting the land. Its my money, ive worked flippen hard for it, so i can do what I like with it, including choose not to give it to my DB.

Would I be horrified if DB killed himself: Yes
Would I offer practical accounting support to wind up his business: Yes
Would I offer all the emotional support I could: Yes

So why is this not enough? Why am I being made to feel it is not enough. I am allowing them to do that. I am allowing myself to be made to feel guilty and i must stop

And now Im angry at myself !!!

Bloody hell. I also just lost a long post. Can't face re-typing so summary below!

My colleague = successful business woman and lawyer
Her mother and extended family = poisonous, money-grabbing nightmares
Her family = culturally inclined to praise the achievements of sons
Her success = personal insult to whole family

Family take every opportunity to leech off her. Our firm has done work for them that they have refused to pay for. She is told that it is her duty to work for them for free. Mother tried to stop her taking her law exams and despite being supported by my colleague for years is still vile to her. Not one of them wants to know her until they need something and then they don't ask - they demand. One branch of her family tried to stop another branch inviting her to a family wedding because they don't want her doing favours for anyone else - she had helped the bridegroom with an immigration matter.

She has probably spent thousands and thousands over the years on her family and they act as though she is somehow in their debt and beneath their contempt.

Please don't turn into my colleague a few years down the line. She would say this to you herself if she could!

I am so pleased that you are going to lay low, and second shoutyhamsters thinking, DBs mum will start knocking on someone elses door.

DBs wife should be aware of what is going on, they really should, it is weird that they have not been.

I hope you can get the solicitor to draft and issue a letter soon. Also, it might be worth getting your solicitor to also start thinking about drafting a work contract if you were to take on DBs business and under what conditions. Salary to you, DBs involvement, DBs clean bill of health, and solvency in some degrees being a prerequisite before you take the helm. That way if your DBs mum starts going down that alley, you have a a strategy in place and a document to give her to read and you can again, walk away from the situation.

diddl I suppose it might not. I might be doing him a disservice. I havent actually yet spoken to him to see if he is the one wanting me to give up all I have left (focus on that ninja!).

x-posted. Yes! Get angry! How dare they!

Your success in life has not come at the expense of his. You did not obtain your home at his expense. You are not financially stable because you have taken anything from him.

But his mother wants him to succeed at the expense of your success, your home and your financial stability.

We need more angry, OP!

Good for you ninja - keep getting angry (at them not yourself), it will give you the strength and resolve to fight the vultures off.

Anger is good here ninja just try and point it in the right direction!

Its so annoying, because I know if i was advising anyone else, friend, client, random stranger, I would be saying all the same things I am being told on here, but I cant seem to translate the thoughts into my emotions.

My counseller can see me on Monday, so I have booked in with her. Im going to take the DCs off to the caravan this weekend so Im completely out of the way. Would it be wrong to just not send them to school tomorrow? Probably.

£700 a month could have gone towards your DCs future tuition fees. A trip to Lapland to see Santa. A deposit on their future first home. Music/ballet lessons. A tutor if they need help at school. Any number of things.

You have allowed your DB, who is a grown man, to take those things away from them. Don't let him do it again.

Get angry, ninja - but don't beat yourself up too hard. The reason you're in this pickle is because you're basically a good person - one who values other people, who helps if she can. That'll be why I'll bet my bum that you're a fab mum, a great friend, a valued colleague... I could go on. But you're NOT PERFECT. Your big achilles heel is this tendency to feel guilted at the drop of a hat. Usually quite harmless, but right now a really dangerous position to be in.

But you can see it, so you're halfway there. Disengage. To be brutally honest, I think that the best and indeed the only way to get yourself free of all this is to cut contact with them. Maybe now you're faced with evidence of the way they truly see you, you might. No matter how many excuses you make for your brother, the fact remains that yes, he knows that every month you shell out £700 to cover his debts. Every month.

Could you live with that? I couldn't. He can. And demand more.

They are poison.

Get yourself and your little family free of them.

No, I'd take them away. Family crisis. Get some headspace and a feel for what's really important. As balsam just said, that £700 could be going into the bank for a deposit on their first home. For a nest egg incase, god forbid, one of them becomes ill or incapacitated. For yourself, so you don't have to be a burden to them. Instead it went on clothes for your brother's wife, alcohol, cars, posh meals, hotels...

Yeah, I feel so sorry for your brother right now...

@Kungfupanda and @Shoutyhamster: we are not worthy!

Ninja, your decision to keep away from the phone for a few days is absolutely right. Your decision to contact your counsellor is absolutely right. Your decision to keep well away for a while is absolutely right. Your decision to contact a solicitor is absolutely right.

This may be completely irrelevant, but in regard to your father living with you.

My grandmother lived with us and we looked after her. When she died, and a couple of my relatives started closing in and trying to screw extra out of the estate to my mum's detriment, the solicitor pointed out that looking after my grandmother was worth its' weight in gold. That my mother had saved most of the estate and that her bro and his wife (principal graspers) were lucky to get what they got at all and without mum having grandmother living with us there would have been NOTHING left. They shut up, but then they were (almost!) reasonable people.

Many years later, my mum lived with us. When she died, her estate was really meant to be shared between my brothers as I had benefited from her helping us buy the house we all lived in (and live in now). Even though she only lived with us for 5 years, my brothers refused to do anything other than divide her estate by 3 with the 3rd share for me. They quoted the above solicitor's view, that my having her with us was worth its' weight in gold.

Your father is living with you. You are there for him and that means that no one needs to worry about him as he is safe and secure. Whether he needs much looking after now, I don't know, but he will at some point, and you will step up to the mark (I have no doubt about that and I don't even know you!). That means they don't have to worry about him at all because they know he is with you.

You have rescued two members of your family, your dad and your brother. You do not have to, or need to, rescue your brother again. It will be thrown in your face again when he screws up again. Do not, at any point, forget the tremendous debt of gratitude that these people already owe you, and they won't even give you that.

Stay strong and look after your kids.

God-I'd just take them and go-don't tell anyone where you're going. Or will your dad have to know and tell them?

Just out of interest-what sort of relationship does your DB's mum have with your dad? Presumably they split up for a reason-does he not think she is a money-grabbing moo!?

OP, so much good solid advice here on this thread and I'm also in the Panda/Hamster fan club. But one thing jumped out at me

" It shouldnt matter that I have a life insurance policy so the DCs would be Ok without inheriting the land. "

This thinking depends on you being dead first! Your DC only benefit from your life insurance if you die. If your DC need help for college or after that and you have the "misfortune" to be alive and you want to be able to help them having already given away your last remaining asset, how will you help them?

In this scenario, will your DB help? He won't be able to. When he has exhausted your last monetary assistance he will finally be bankrupt. Somehow - I have absolutely no doubt - it will be painted as your fault but from your DC's point of view there will be nothing for them when they need their mother's support. The guilt you feel now will be as nothing to the regret and quite possibly anguish you will feel then.

The core of your problem - as you already know- is emotional, not rational or financial. I wish you all the very best that the counsellor can help you make huge strides and crack that one and tap into the anger against all this manipulation that will help you protect your own family and ultimately may even be your DB's final and only chance to pull his life round.