AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Your dc, your priority. Her dc, her priority. Don't fuck up your own future for someone who has already ducked his up.

You have to be hard here, bailing him out will not help him. If he can't live up to his own responsibilities he will never learn.

You are not your brothers keeper, if she wants to be, fine, that's her choice but making YOUR choice for you is bloody wrong.

I'm so sorry they are doing this to you Ninja. You have gone over and beyond your 'calll of duty'. I'm so sorry your family cannot see this.

Also I was going to say that threatening suicide can also be the ultimate manipulation - to have people do things your way,

I think you are under a strong manipulative spell to me - seriously

The best that could happen to your brother is that he goes bankrupt and goes on benefits a while. No shame in that. Start a fresh.

You MUST NOT do this.

Seriously. It is quite clear that these people (DB and his mother) have no real concept of money/ownership/obligation and it is not surprising that his business keeps failing.

You did not pay your brother an inheritance - I don't know how the woman has the front to suggest that. There was no inheritance - none. There was an asset which was being forfeited due to your father's bankruptcy. Someone would have bought it and it happened to be you. This benefited your brother because it sorted out your father's living arrangements. If the house that you purchased with your money was in any way your brother's inheritance then by the same twisted logic, your brother owes you a share of his house as YOUR inheritance.

You have loaned/given/whatever your DB ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS. The equivalent of many years salary for most people. And not only do they want more from you, they are trying to minimise the scale of your generosity in relation to that massive sum of money.

Most siblings do not give their brothers/sisters that sort of money. My DP's bailing out of his sister came to less than £2,500 in total. You have been unusually, spectacularly generous and they are not grateful. They think you haven't done enough. They think you are selfish. They think you owe your DB more.

How DARE they use you like this. How DARE they suggest that they have the right to take the last bit of equity in your home, or your last remaining asset, from you and your children. How DARE they imply that your children should go without the benefits that money could bring to them so that your older brother can be rescued once again from his stupid mistakes.

And all this when this selfish woman doesn't even want her son to live with her. Where is her investment in her own child? Oh yes, she doesn't need to make one because she knows she can keep on and on at you until you absolve her of her responsibilities.

You need to stop explaining and stop engaging and get very, very angry with this woman. So they have postponed the meeting for you to attend. How DARE they assume you will jump to their order.

Do NOT go to the meeting. Do NOT engage with them. If they carry on in this vein then find some anger about this and use it.

Don't do this - we all have a feckless relative in the cupboard who would, with opportunity have their hand out. Let him go bankrupt. He needs to learn to live in the real world and he sounds well shot of his wife if she's that grasping frankly. Let him declare and claim benefits if needs be, he needs to hit rock bottom and ask for help before he's going to get better. You can support him emotionally without being financially involved.

Do not get involved with any meetings. Just don't go, don't talk.

Think of it this way - you have a chance to break a pattern in your family - you are protecting your children from going through the same by retaining assets and teaching them financial responsibility - if you bail out someone again and again it sends a very firm message to your kids 'do what you like, someone will pick up the mess after you'.

"So they have postponed the meeting for you to attend. How DARE they assume you will jump to their order."

They've postponed because they want your fucking money!

If your brother has had 150k off you in lieu of inheritance am I right in thinking that when your father and his mother die you,re meant to get 150k more from their estate than he is?

Is this in writing in their will? If not do you think he will stick to it? What about the fact that now you've had to put it on a mortgage you're out of pocket by far more than 150k with interest over a long period.

If your father dies first is there a chance that DBs mother may rewrite her will and cut you out completely.?

I'm sure this has been suggested before (in the reversing thread?) but we need a panda emoticon/smiley. She is GOOD. Honestly OP, listen to panda. She makes such good sense. Panda, can I just follow you round for a while till some of your wisdom rubs off on me?

I've been following this thread and am so appalled for you. Your family are utterly outrageous!

Firstly, "giving" your brother £150k is beyond generous and more than you should have done. It's disgusting that you have been left to absorb this so that your SIL can save face. Utterly disgusting. I feel so angry for you that they are treating you like a cashpoint with no regard for your security or your children.

DO NOT engage with this any further. It should be clear to you now that they intend to bully and manipulate you until you cave in and have no regard for how you will suffer as a result. You are not your brother's carer - he has a wife and mother who can fill that role and if they choose not to then that's on their heads. Please be strong!

Side note on the value of the land. Obviously it will depend on exactly how big and where it is, but my in laws jointly sold their house and big garden along with their neighbours of equal size, to developers about 5 years ago. Total plot size was a smidgen under an acre - just two big houses and gardens. Between them they got over £900,000 pounds.

£75k? She's having you hook, line and sinker.

Just to say again, don´t give in-and if you do sell your plot of land-use the money to reduce your mortgage!

This was what I wanted to say but wasn't sure how to put:

The 150grand was not part gift. YOU got no inheritance, why should he? You paid for your property. So if they want to argue that the 150 was inheritance, wtf did you have to pay for your share?!

and this:

If your brother has had 150k off you in lieu of inheritance am I right in thinking that when your father and his mother die you,re meant to get 150k more from their estate than he is?

Can you answer that question as I don't understand.

Plus LOVE kungfupanndas last post at. Thu 30-Jun-11 07:41:50. Read and read again!

sparkle makes an excellent point. Perhaps you should get a land agent over to value the plot of land for you. You ought to have an idea of it's true value, if nothing else you might be able to remortgage your house against the value of the land and secure a better interest rate.

If you are in the Manchester area I have a friend who works as a land agent that might be able to help.

Oh ninja - you've had some great advice on here, please take it.

A family who can put this amount of emotional pressure on you over money are really not worth keeping on good terms with.

My BIL is exactly the same as your DB, he lives beyond his means and is a totally selfish feckless twat. The demands for cash don't ever stop coming and once you've outlived your usefulness then you're dumped.

Don't do it - your DCs are the people you are responsible for - not DB.

Let's get this straight Ninja. Whatever Db's mother imagines, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO BAIL DB OUT. Where is this mythical 50k going to come from? So you sell your land for probably less than it could be worth in the future - your children's future - and then have a new development on your doorstep. Quality of your life is reduced, value of your house may be reduced. Then what? You already have a massive debt thanks to DB. Perhaps you should remind them that your debts are actually bigger than his and you have DC's to care for. The fact you can pay your debts is down to your hard work, for your family - and not for DB's sink fund.
You must not give them any money. Whatever this evil cow has said to guilt you out, you can't afford it. What if you got sick or lost your job? They'd be heading for the hills so fast you wouldn't see them for dust. Bollocks that she says the opposite. She cares for nothing but herself and her son.
You think you feel guilty now - how guilty would you feel if as a result of your brother's actions you and your children ended up bankrupt and homeless? It is a real possibility if you lend more money.
I'd be seriously thinking about letting DB's Dw's parents know what's going on. why should they be protected why is their daughter so ashamed?

Stay strong. Do not give in.

Can I make a suggestion? If you waver and do agree to meet them, take a solicitor with you, whom you have very fully briefed before you go, and let them do all the talking for you. That way, the family will know that you are serious about what your intentions (or lack of!) are, and they will find it very difficult to sway a professional person who has no emotional connection to what is going on around them. The solicitor would also be perfectly capable of ending the meeting. :-)
Or even better, get the solicitor to write them all a letter on your behalf telling them that there is no money forthcoming, you'd offer your brother professional accountancy advice any time, but otherwise the matter is at an end, and if they don't shut up and go sort the problem out on their own, you'll be the person bankrupting him for the £150k back. (Not sure - my land law was rather a long time ago, but can't you prove that your DB put money (his/yours?) into the house that's in his wife's name and therefore has a beneficial interest in it?)

Oh, and don't even contemplate selling the land. The housing market being as it is, unless it's a ransom strip or something unusual, it's rock bottom prices atm.

Oh god, just seen this thread - right, tell them it doesn't matter when they postpone the meeting until, you're not going. Then don't answer the phone to her, for at least 2 weeks.

If you are going to sell that land, pay down your mortgage. Pay off some of the debt.

Your brother's debt is not your responsibility, nor is his DW's need to keep up appearances - but then I'm pretty sure they know by now, what do you think his W has told her parents to justify throwing out her DH when he's just out of hospital? Surely she's had to tell them to explain her callous behaviour?

All this talk about inheritance, how about this, if you were hit by a bus tomorrow, what would your DCs get? As far as I can see, from the sale of the house, they'd not be much left over after the estate agent and other fees were paid, then there's whatever they would get from the sale of this land and whatever's in their trust funds. If you take out that land, what would you be leaving them?

Put your DC's future first. Look at it this way, that land could pay for uni. It can pay for your DB's debts now or your DCs in the future. I know which I think would be more deserving.

"A family who can put this amount of emotional pressure on you..."

This is the key to the problem - dealing with this emotional pressure.

This family are VERY good at putting on EMOTIONAL pressure - they play on your emotions. They are controlling people.

YOU are in control of your emotions - no one else.

And YOU are in control of your own purse strings.

YOU are in control of your own mind.

ninja if you have 30 pounds left after paying your outgoings then you cannot possibly bail out your brother. You have to start to put your children's future first. Who would bail you out if you defaulted on your mortgage? I cannot believe that you are seriously thinking of giving more money , putting your own children's home at risk, to save face for your SIL.

How do they have this hold over you that is strong enough to threaten your instinct and ability to provide for your own DCs ? Do you need to feel validated by them as a success, or rescuer? If your brother is genuinely threatening suicide he needs proper medical help.

I would be inclined to say that I would only attend a family meeting if SILs parents were also there. And take along a breakdown of your court bills and outgoings, tell them that you are 150 grand down due to previous loan, cannot afford to give more, and you have to keep the land as a means of paying off the mortgage on the 150k which your brother defaulted on.

I would also tell SILs parents what is going on.

Everyone else has said it, this is all manipulative bullshit and you need to stay strong.

About your DB's mother: The more you post, the more I'm convinced this is all rather more about her than your DB. She won't let him fail, will she? If she was truly only thinking of him, really caring about him, she would let him fail, What I mean is, he has serious mental health issues. Yes, the suicide stuff might be exaggerated, but everything he's done in the run up sounds like someone going off the rails. He is incapable of running a business. He's incapable of seeing his wife for what she is. He has no sense, no boundaries. Bunging him a load of cash now does what? It doesn't sort out his real problems. It gives him another chance to screw up, which he will. How do you think he's going to feel when he screws up yet again?

If DB's mother really cared for him, she would let him go bankrupt, let him live a quiet and modest lifestyle of someone who is ill and needs to get his shit together. She would not burden him yet again with the pressure of being a success, something he cannot achieve, not in his current circs, anyway. The wife will go, that's a good thing, if DB's mother cared for him, she could see the wife is bad news and good riddance. He could live off benefits, try to get some counselling, try to build up some self esteem (because I reckon the lavish lifestyle and trophy wife are probably substitutes for something missing there). Maybe in time get a job and basically do things for himself, rather than being everyone else's puppet.

Is DB's mother status driven? Does her self esteem come from the reflected glory of her PFB's status. Is it that she cannot bear for her DB to be a failure, because that will make her one? Is this all part jealousy? That her child has failed, whereas your mother's children have made a success of their lives. Does she think that this makes her look bad?

fluter solicitor is a good idea.

Or even a straight-talking trusted friend.

Keep remembering no is a complete sentence just keep saying no. Infact i would get caller ID and start screening your calls. You just do not need this in your life. It is appalling the lengths these "family members" will go to to manipulate you.

Change your answer phone message. "The bank of falleninja is now closed, please refer all inquiries to DBs wife on this number."

Be there for your brother, write him letters, send him texts, but keep your distance as they will pull you into their vortex. If you need to see your DB, arrange a mutual place and take someone neutral as a "buffer".

Feeling so angry and sad that you are in this situation.

I am in awe of Kungfupanda's post of 07:41:50. If you only memorise one post on this thread, make it that one!

Please, don't cave. They've postponed the meeting because they want your money and they know if they can get you in a room with them and pile on the pressure, you might cave.

Ten years ago, you hobbled yourself financially to get your brother out of the poop and you'll be paying that debt off for the next zillion years. It was supposed to be a loan, that was the agreement. He was going to pay it off over 20 years, but he defaulted 6 months in and didn't even tell you. He was prepared to leave you homeless with a newborn. And just to put the icing on the cake, his bloody mother is now turning round and telling you it was part gift, part you making up for the fact that due to your dad's bankruptcy he wasn't going to get any inheritance!!

I don't think this point has been made yet, but we have to face the fact that your DB chose to default on the loan repayments because he knew the loan was in your name and there wasn't a thing you could do about it? I bet he hasn't spent the last 10 years in Primark clothes, holidaying in a caravan in Skegness and driving about in an ancient Mini held together with gaffer tape, has he? No... so he's simply decided he didn't need to pay you back, because you couldn't actually make him. Every flash holiday or new car is money he could have paid back to you, but chose not to.

I think you need to stop engaging with his mother, because she seems to know how to put the thumbscrews on you. Tell her if it's none of your DM's business, it's none of hers either, and you will only discuss your brother's financial arrangements with him. If you need to tell her anything, just say:

"Yes, I can afford to bail him out again, but I'm not going to. You and I both know I'd never see a penny of that money again. That money is for my children, and I have already given quite enough of their birthright to my brother."

I really like Fluter's suggestion of taking a solicitor with you!

"According to my dad, P feels it is important that DB understands that everyone is "there for him", and my absence from the meeting might make him think "i dont care"."

Tell P that you will come to the meeting on one condition: that DB's wife and in-laws are there too. Why is it that you must be there to show you care but they must not be there because it's a secret?
Actually, it's a bit of an insult to the ILs. How would you feel if one of your DC or their spouses kept this sort of thing secret from you? I'd be horrified as it signifies that the relationship is rotten to its very heart.

FFS ninja you need to get angry this behaviour from your family is despicable. There is, was, and never will be an inheritance if there was then where is your share coming from? This £150k that you gave your brother, on the understanding it would be paid back, how much is that actually going to cost you in the end. Add up all the interest that you will be paying on the debt (note not inheritance) that you have accrued on his behalf already. You really cannot afford to give him any more money. Your own financial position is not great at the moment with the court case etc. You may well need to sell that land just to keep your own head above water. What reasonable person, who actually cares about you, would want to put you at risk of losing your home again?!

I think the idea of getting a solicitor involved is not a bad one. You need someone to stand up to these people for you. They are unbelievable!