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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

578 replies

fallenninja · 28/06/2011 07:45

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

OP posts:
Animation · 30/06/2011 09:04

"The bank of falleninja is now closed, please refer all inquiries to DBs wife on this number."

That's the spirit!

...and repeat.

Smile
senua · 30/06/2011 09:11

Ninja, have you noticed how, since you mentioned that you have £30.57 spare each month, people have picked up on it and discussed it? Or the debate about the field, its value, what to do with it. This is what people do.

If you give DB's mum any sort of data then she will gnaw away at it. Don't give her ammunition. Don't explain, don't justify. Just say 'no' and leave it at that. End of.

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 30/06/2011 09:15

Is there no way you can somehow tell the DB wife's family about the problems anonymously?

Chandon · 30/06/2011 09:22

it is not your responsibility OP, and your family are unfair to you!

just say you have no funds, no time and no inclination.

In as nice as possible a way, but the answer ahs to be no.

Horrible emotional blackmail. Put bluntly: if he wants to kill himself, it is NOT ever YOUR fault!

FetchezLaVache · 30/06/2011 09:31

Just wanted to add, can you arrange to get the field valued? Because it might help to know for a fact the extent to which she wishes to rip you off over it.

Chandon · 30/06/2011 09:32

instead of blathering about inheritance (which is NEVER guaranteed, your dad might die first, she might then remarry, or she may grow very old and need every last penny for care), why doesn't she remortgage HER house and pay off his debts? Well?

TandB · 30/06/2011 09:38

PrincessJenga - I am only this rational on paper. In real life I would probably be gibbering with incoherent rage by now if I was in Ninja's position. And probably flouncing. Loudly.

Right. Where is Shoutyhamster. We need more hamster input here. But in the meantime, having had this turning over in my mind on my drive across London, and having calmed down a little from my utter rage on your behalf, this is what I would suggest.

It is very easy to say 'don't engage' but I know it is less easy to do when you are in the middle of this sort of emotional situation. I don't get the impression you would be able to sustain a not-discussing-it stance and I am worried that you would be chipped away at until you caved in. So I suggest you put something very firm and very clear in writing/email. If this were me, this is what I would be saying.....

Dear DB's mum

I am putting this in writing as I am beyond angry and beyond hurt about the way I am being treated over this matter. I do not feel able to discuss this matter with you any further on a face-to-face basis while you are taking the stance you have recently chosen to take, but I wish to provide a response to the issues you have raised concerning my financial situation.

I am entirely unable to understand why you would try to assert that the £150,000 loan that I made to DB was in any way an "inheritance payment". This would suggest that I myself received some form of financial inheritance from my father and that part of that was owed to DB. You are perfectly well aware that this is not the case. The family home was a forfeited asset and I chose to purchase it with my own money and with a mortgage in my name. Had I chosen to purchase any other property I doubt that you would be seeking to suggest that I owed DB inheritance money, and had any other stranger purchased the house I cannot possibly imagine that you would have asked them for a share of the equity. DB was no more entitled to a share of the value of my house than I am to a share of the value of his.

The £150,000 was a loan. You know this. DB knows this. I know this. You also know that he defaulted on this loan and did so in such a way that I came close to losing my home while pregnant and he did not even have the care or courtesy to inform me of the situation.

The fact that you are now seeking to suggest that the very large loan of 75% of the equity in my home that I made to DB out of nothing other than love and concern was in some way owed to him is quite frankly deeply insulting. You are, for some reason, trying to minimise the value of the assistance I gave to him and I must, given your current stance, assume that this is to try to persuade me to give DB yet more of my own money on the basis that what I have done so far was nothing more than my duty.

It is quite clear to me that you perceive some sort of financial and moral obligation towards DB on my part. It is also clear to me that you do not, for reasons that I do not understand, feel that I should be allowed to be financially stable when he has failed financially. I do not see that you will be content until every penny and every asset I own has been handed over to DB. I accept that it is natural that you will have more care for your natural son than for me, but given that we have had a good relationship in the past, I find it extraordinarily hurtful that you want me to place myself and my children in the position of having no financial security so that your son can be saved from the stigma of blackmail. It appears to me that you have no real concern for my family situation and that is deeply upsetting.

You are perfectly well aware that I have offered various solutions to DB's business problems and he has rejected every one of these offers. The only acceptable solution in his eyes was for me to give up my job, run his business for him but give all the proceeds directly to him. Surely you can see how completely unreasonable this is? DB has been assisted by me to the tune of £150,000 already and yet he is not coming to me asking for my help and support - he is dictating terms, and terms which no sane person would be prepared to accept.

Furthermore, I have spoken to DB and it is quite clear to me that he is in no state to run a business. Providing him with the financial means to keep the business running would be an appallingly bad idea given his mental health at the current time.

I need to make my position very clear in the hope that we can avoid a complete breakdown in the family relationship. I will not be offering DB any sort of financial loan or payment. I will not be giving him the last of the equity in my home or my one remaining asset. This is an unreasonable request on your part. What I am willing to offer is my professional expertise in helping DB wind his business up in the most favourable way possible and, as always, my total emotional support at this difficult time.

I am not willing to attend the family meeting which you have postponed. I do not think it is appropriate for DB, who is clearly extremely unwell, to sit and listen to you pressurising me and to hear me, his sister, setting out the reasons why I am not willing to give him any more money. Nor do I think it is remotely helpful for him to hear you putting a spin on past events that will allow him to hide from his responsibilities. The priority of the family should be to help him get well and exit this business situation with the minimum of stress.

I will not discuss the issue of a loan or gift to DB any further. Please do not attempt to do so. If you wish to call me to discuss the other ways in which I can help then please do so at any time. But you should be aware that any attempt to raise the issue of a loan or gift will lead to me terminating the telephone conversation immediately. In those circumstances I will be forced to withdraw my offer of any form of assistance as I am not willing to put myself in such a hurtful and distressing situation.

Yours

Ninja

SenoritaViva · 30/06/2011 09:39

Chandon ninja has answered this, DB's mum is in rented accommodation.

FetchezLaVache · 30/06/2011 09:42

Standing ovation for the Panda

diddl · 30/06/2011 09:42

And yes re "inheritance"-if that was his-how come it is your mortgage that has more than doubled?Confused

And he has 2 properties that he has been paying for?

Why doesn´t his mum give her half of the "buy to let" to him?

dutchyoriginal · 30/06/2011 09:44

First off, apologies for the essay and the exclamation marks... so angry on your behalf.

Dear Ninja, you know with your head that you should not bail out your brother, but that knowledge has not "reached" your heart yet, that's why P can try to manipulate you. Right now, she's a lioness defending her cub and that's exactly what you need to do as well!

Think of your children, feel the need to protect your children, and then get angry about how DB, DSIL and his mother are trying to harm your children! No more money for him! Right now, every month, you pay him 700 pounds! (indirectly via the higher morgage) Think of what you could do for your children every month with that 700! I repeat, no more money for him!

Also, your brother is addicted, addicted to spending money and/or gambling ("I'll pay when the next creditor pays, when I win again"). The fact that over the past ten years, he could justify to himself spending more money on bling and still look you in the eye, is an indication of that. The need to spend is bigger than the feelings and safety of his familymembers. His wife and mother are enabling him in this.

If you bailed him out, it would be the equivalent of getting him another mountain of coke and handing him the straw to snort through it all. The suicide attempt might be a sign that he has finally reached rock bottom, this is the right time for him to get the psychological help he needs to try and break the addiction. Concentrate on getting that help, hopefully with the help of the rest of the family. Also, if there's going to be an "intervention", the SIL's family should be there as well.

Finally, there seems to be a family pattern with problems with "money addiction", first your DF, now your DB. Again, be the lioness defending/raising your cubs and show your cubs/DC's the right way to handle money.

Wishing you lots of strength!

dutchyoriginal · 30/06/2011 09:49

Standing ovation for Panda

Longtalljosie · 30/06/2011 09:50

Send kungfu's letter. I would also add...

I think you (understandably) are hoping if DB is put on a financial even keel, he will consolidate his position and somehow become good with money. Every month when I pay more than double my former mortgage because of his defaulted loan, I am reminded this is not the case. He is unable to handle money at the moment. The money will go if I give it to him. It is as simple as that. I sincerely believe he needs to become bankrupt - with the restrictions on credit this will entail - in order to learn how to manage money. I think bankruptcy is inevitable for DB. The question is whether I should also lose my home along the way. Which I won't do.

SuePurblybilt · 30/06/2011 09:52

I am v worried that you're wavering too Ninja Sad.Be strong!

Adopt Kungfupanda as your personal guru and send that email. Think of Mumsnet - if you cave in to their manipulation, several of us will actually explode with rage on your behalf.Grin

TandB · 30/06/2011 09:54

And another thing since I a, on an angry roll right now!

Work out several different ways that the £150,000 could have benefited your children (or the £700 per month as Duchy rightly points out) and send it to her as a schedule. School fees, house deposits, gap year trips, cars, music lessons, horses, whatever. And do the same for the money she is now asking for. Let her see what she is demanding that your children give up.

Grandhighpoohba · 30/06/2011 09:54

Hi, have been lurking, but a post above from kalinda really struck me, and I think that the point is worth repeating.

Putting aside all the stuff about whether you can afford this (You can't) or whether you have an obligation, (You don't) Giving your brother money would be such a bad plan. Say you had oodles and oodles of money, and giving him it would cost you no pain. It would still be a really bad idea This man has made a serious mess of his life, not once, but twice, and is clearly not capable of running a business. That fact has left him suicidal. Giving him the money just puts him under further pressure to succeed at something he has already screwed up at twice. Think back to the rambling man you spoke to on the phone. Did he sound like someone who needs the pressure of running a business that is beyond him?

oh, and the "inheritance" thing. I think that you need to explain in small words to DB's mother, and DB, that when your father went bankrupt, it meant that there was no inheritance left for anyone. All that was left was debt, some of which you took on.

clayre · 30/06/2011 09:56

Do you have your brothers inlaws email address? I would send an email about the next "meeting" to eveyone involved and accidently include his inlaws!

Inertia · 30/06/2011 09:57

kung-fupanda brilliant letter.

ninja , panda's response is perfect (this is starting to sound like a Pixar film). Sending a letter is ideal as they cannot talk you round . Might be an idea to run it by a solicitor to, to check there are no legal snags .

CaveMum · 30/06/2011 09:57

[starts panda fanclub]

[applauds]

Grandhighpoohba · 30/06/2011 10:01

Cross-posted with panda

Everything that Panda said. Send that letter!

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 30/06/2011 10:11

I absolutely agree - Pannda is amazing and that letter should be sent just as it is.

Inertia · 30/06/2011 10:12

Panda, that's another good point well made.

Ninja, this isn't Brewster's millions, you don't have endless amounts of cash that you need to distribute. The money that you loaned your DB to prop up his flash spending and trophy wife business represents food, clothes and educational opportunities taken from your children.

Your brother is ill, and he needs help. As a priority he needs professional medical help for his mental health issues. But he has support from his money grabbing in cahoots with a property developer already mother, your father, and access to support from his wife and her family if they would only drop the whole farcical charade of being resounding successes in the business world.

Your children only have you to provide for them. Nobody else in the family is willing to put your children first, and it doesn't sound as if anyone is even capable of staying solvent long enough to provide for them. You cannot allow your family to throw your children's futures into the black hole.

MorelliOrRanger · 30/06/2011 10:15

Been following this thread - OP I feel so bad for you - emotional blackmail is the worst.

TBH - I think putting your land in trust for your children is a brilliant idea.

Also I think KungFu's letter is absolutely brilliant. Read it, write it and then send it to DB's mum.

Good luck and Keep Strong

aldiwhore · 30/06/2011 10:23

You can 'be there' for your brother with emotional support, with sisterly love and that costs nothing. You're being blackmailed and you need to get angry like others have said.

I have a brother who has regular crises, the amounts of cash involved are irrelevant but I am rather pleased I've not been able to financially bail him out. My folks have in the past, and I didn't begrudge it but it didn't help him in the long run. They now can't afford to bail him out again, he knows that door is firmly shut and hey presto! he's not been so much trouble since.

If you are not prepared to bail him out, you don't have to go into details, you simply say you cannot help financially. Your brother sounds like he's in a sorry mess, and it must be tough, I KNOW its tough but you've got to use the tough love approach here.

The advice given on here is brilliant, I'm no financial whizz, but if you want to help in some way, offer to look at his accounts and arrange self help for him. This is all my folks do for my brother these days, he'll be paying off his debts for a long long time but at present he's not depressed, not getting into more mess and not costing the rest of the family everything they possess.

My brother was so used to being helped out of his own mess that even his mates called him the bail out boy. You have to draw a line. Doing the right thing may cause problems with the extended family, but I think its important you don't allow yourself be blackmailed.

Planetofthegrapes · 30/06/2011 10:24

If interest rates go up then you are going to be squeezed even harder paying off 'his' £150,000 debt.

He's more likely to sink then swim, given his past pissing money up the wall habit. Please don't cave in and get dragged down with him.